• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Results 1 to 20 of 36

    Thread: Pattern...Hi on face or fins

    Hybrid View

    Previous Post Previous Post   Next Post Next Post
    1. #1
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2004
      Location
      Dallas, Texas
      Posts
      2,640

      Pattern...Hi on face or fins

      It is time to start another thread in our Pattern.. series. This one will be Pattern...Hi on Face or Fins. Your host will be Steve Childers. Is Hi on the face or fins a good thing or a bad thing? What is the difference between Hi and Beni and Hiban? Please do a search of Pattern... and be sure all your questions have been answered on the previous threads. We are very pleased to offer you the finest thoughts available on these subjects from some of the top minds in the Koi Hooby - thank you for your participation. :D
      F'ubba

    2. #2
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
      Dr J I Phillips is offline Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2004
      Location
      Johannesburg, South Africa
      Posts
      874

      A question

      Hi, or red in the pectoral fins may be desirable in some varieties; goshiki han and symmetrical fiery hi in asagi would be examples.
      In gosanke, hi in the fins is not desirable. How serious a problem is hi in the fins of say kohaku? Is it a flaw (minor/medium/major?) or a pattern demerit? How would it compare with another undesirable feature such as a shimmie?

    3. #3
      schildkoi is offline Inactivated
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Memphis, TN
      Posts
      3,028

      Thanks for the questions Dr Jim

      But I know you already know the answers

      If the "strict" standards (historically) are used, red in the fins (Pecs or Dorsal) would be a big flaw. In the Mid 90s, a there was shift from using the "standards" as hard fast rules and to using them as a "guide" in the judging process. Many very high quality Koi were being overlooked due to having red in the pecs or dorsal fins (gosankes) that were for the lack of these flaws, far superior to the actual winning Koi. So in today's judging world, red in these areas is still looked at but wieghed against the other attributes of the Koi and there are many cases where red in a pectoral fin as an example may help to balance the overall pattern of the Koi and even act as an attribute. So in regards to the red in a Koi's finnage, its not looked at as an automatic demerit any longer.

      Similarly, when we look at the beni on the head of a gosanke, te "ideal" has always been to have the beni come down the head toapproximately even with the eyes and balanced between each. Again, using the "standards" mas a guide instead of hard fast rules (for many of the same reasons mentioned earlier), we now see many "interesting" head patterns beyond the old "typical ideal". Wrapping oer to oe side has become more common and can be an attribute or a detriment. As an attribut, if it wraps on one side and is balanced with perhaps some added beni to the orther, it can have a very nice "appeal". However, an unbalanced wrapping can very easily be a detriment if it acts as a wieghting to one side and thus throw off the visual balance. Another possible detriment when we look at beni "wrapping" on the head has as much to do with a possible health issue and as such, judging. Careful inspection of the wrapping over an eye should e done since pigment in the iris of the eye can now become the concern of the ealthiness of the eye itself. Pigmentation in the eye, is stil a "hard standard" and will not be overlooked by a judge if observed.

      Steve

    4. #4
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
      Dr J I Phillips is offline Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2004
      Location
      Johannesburg, South Africa
      Posts
      874

      Menkaburi?

      Thank you Mr Childers. I find it difficult to explain this concept to people but you have explained it eloquently.
      I would still, always consider menkaburi - an almost complete covering of the head in red, as a demerit.

    5. #5
      schildkoi is offline Inactivated
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Memphis, TN
      Posts
      3,028

      Dr. Jim, I totally agree!

      menkaburi - an almost complete covering of the head in red, as a demerit.
      The "helmet head syndrome" as I like to call it. Definitely NOT pleasing. In "theory", the Koi should begin with white and end in white (Gosankes). Having the white nose/front facial features and ending whith a nice seperation (Odome, white area just befor the tail) helps to add balance and continuity to the Koi.

      But, like every "rule" there are exceptions....which leads me into another subject within the scope of this thread....Kuchi Beni, or "Lips stick".

      I remember reading in an old Koi book about Kuchi beni years ago and how it was NOT favorable by the Japanese since back in those days at least, lips stick on Japanese women was apparently frowned apon. If this were true, it shows another example of how "standards" or the desireability at least of different traits can change over time, perhaps in this case to more "western influence"?

      Keep in mind that the term "Kuchi Beni" actually only refers to a thin line of beni across the lips...just like lip stick. The term has been expanded over he years to include beni on the nose as well that although may take us away from the beginning in white concept but is not a distraction in most cases and can now be looked upod as "adding interest" to the overall pattern.

      Steve

    6. #6
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
      Bob Winkler is offline Tooth Carpenter, Wine Drinker, but always Koi Kichi
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Colorado Springs, Colorado
      Posts
      433
      Shila and I almost ALWAYS look for kuchibeni when purchasing koi... for some reason it is always attractive to us both. About half our koi have it. So for us, it is always a plus.

      The head pattern, if interesting on a high quality koi, can be somewhat unbalanced and still "win". If all else was equal, it would not, but when is all else equal?
      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

    7. #7
      David Smothers's Avatar
      David Smothers is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Location
      Raleigh, North Carolina
      Posts
      1,834

      Hi on the Face

      Here is a pic of one of mine. This pattern works well for this girl.
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    8. #8
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
      Dr J I Phillips is offline Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2004
      Location
      Johannesburg, South Africa
      Posts
      874
      The sanke in the middle was the BKKS GC in 2003. In 2004 it took reserve GC. Yes, Paul, the top right Koi is the "Mask" BKKS GC 2004. The other maruten kohaku was in the BKKS 2003 show and I think took an award. I have had the fortune to see these Koi in life, at the BKKS. They are excellent Koi. Personally, I do not like any of the three head patterns. The maruten needs to be further forward, the mask is too much red for my taste on the nose and I am not attracted to the sanke. In an article in the Koikeeper magazine it was described as interesting. The judges, however, were judging the whole Koi and not head patterns.
      I like the head pattern on Bob's fish. Here is one of mine.
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    9. #9
      ccna101 is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2013
      Location
      San Francisco Bay Area
      Posts
      338
      old thread but interesting ...

      bump

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •