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    Thread: Pattern...Hi on face or fins

    1. #1
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      Pattern...Hi on face or fins

      It is time to start another thread in our Pattern.. series. This one will be Pattern...Hi on Face or Fins. Your host will be Steve Childers. Is Hi on the face or fins a good thing or a bad thing? What is the difference between Hi and Beni and Hiban? Please do a search of Pattern... and be sure all your questions have been answered on the previous threads. We are very pleased to offer you the finest thoughts available on these subjects from some of the top minds in the Koi Hooby - thank you for your participation. :D
      F'ubba

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    2. #2
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
      Dr J I Phillips is offline Our Esteemed South African Koi Judge
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      A question

      Hi, or red in the pectoral fins may be desirable in some varieties; goshiki han and symmetrical fiery hi in asagi would be examples.
      In gosanke, hi in the fins is not desirable. How serious a problem is hi in the fins of say kohaku? Is it a flaw (minor/medium/major?) or a pattern demerit? How would it compare with another undesirable feature such as a shimmie?

    3. #3
      schildkoi is offline Inactivated
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      Thanks for the questions Dr Jim

      But I know you already know the answers

      If the "strict" standards (historically) are used, red in the fins (Pecs or Dorsal) would be a big flaw. In the Mid 90s, a there was shift from using the "standards" as hard fast rules and to using them as a "guide" in the judging process. Many very high quality Koi were being overlooked due to having red in the pecs or dorsal fins (gosankes) that were for the lack of these flaws, far superior to the actual winning Koi. So in today's judging world, red in these areas is still looked at but wieghed against the other attributes of the Koi and there are many cases where red in a pectoral fin as an example may help to balance the overall pattern of the Koi and even act as an attribute. So in regards to the red in a Koi's finnage, its not looked at as an automatic demerit any longer.

      Similarly, when we look at the beni on the head of a gosanke, te "ideal" has always been to have the beni come down the head toapproximately even with the eyes and balanced between each. Again, using the "standards" mas a guide instead of hard fast rules (for many of the same reasons mentioned earlier), we now see many "interesting" head patterns beyond the old "typical ideal". Wrapping oer to oe side has become more common and can be an attribute or a detriment. As an attribut, if it wraps on one side and is balanced with perhaps some added beni to the orther, it can have a very nice "appeal". However, an unbalanced wrapping can very easily be a detriment if it acts as a wieghting to one side and thus throw off the visual balance. Another possible detriment when we look at beni "wrapping" on the head has as much to do with a possible health issue and as such, judging. Careful inspection of the wrapping over an eye should e done since pigment in the iris of the eye can now become the concern of the ealthiness of the eye itself. Pigmentation in the eye, is stil a "hard standard" and will not be overlooked by a judge if observed.

      Steve

    4. #4
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
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      Menkaburi?

      Thank you Mr Childers. I find it difficult to explain this concept to people but you have explained it eloquently.
      I would still, always consider menkaburi - an almost complete covering of the head in red, as a demerit.

    5. #5
      schildkoi is offline Inactivated
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      Dr. Jim, I totally agree!

      menkaburi - an almost complete covering of the head in red, as a demerit.
      The "helmet head syndrome" as I like to call it. Definitely NOT pleasing. In "theory", the Koi should begin with white and end in white (Gosankes). Having the white nose/front facial features and ending whith a nice seperation (Odome, white area just befor the tail) helps to add balance and continuity to the Koi.

      But, like every "rule" there are exceptions....which leads me into another subject within the scope of this thread....Kuchi Beni, or "Lips stick".

      I remember reading in an old Koi book about Kuchi beni years ago and how it was NOT favorable by the Japanese since back in those days at least, lips stick on Japanese women was apparently frowned apon. If this were true, it shows another example of how "standards" or the desireability at least of different traits can change over time, perhaps in this case to more "western influence"?

      Keep in mind that the term "Kuchi Beni" actually only refers to a thin line of beni across the lips...just like lip stick. The term has been expanded over he years to include beni on the nose as well that although may take us away from the beginning in white concept but is not a distraction in most cases and can now be looked upod as "adding interest" to the overall pattern.

      Steve

    6. #6
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      Shila and I almost ALWAYS look for kuchibeni when purchasing koi... for some reason it is always attractive to us both. About half our koi have it. So for us, it is always a plus.

      The head pattern, if interesting on a high quality koi, can be somewhat unbalanced and still "win". If all else was equal, it would not, but when is all else equal?
      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

    7. #7
      schildkoi is offline Inactivated
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      Speaking of the term "Balance".......

      We often use this term and it s important to note that there is in fact a difference between "balance", Symetrical" and assymetrical". A "symetrical pattern could be either good or bad. We often think of "balanced as only being "good". But, A Kohaku as an example could have a bad pattern and yet be balnced. If the first "step didn't come far enough forward on the head and the last step didn't go far enough back towards the tail, it could still be "balanced" but yet undesireable as an example.

      A "symetrical' pattern infers "balanced" and eveness in its appearance front to back and side to side....but again, as a single factor may not make the Koi. The pattern could still be "light" verses "bold" and may , again not make the Koi.

      A koi with an "assymetrical" pattern can still have a "balanced" appearance when the beni on the head wraps to one side and is offset by a patch of beni to the other side.....as an example. It is important to know not only how these terms are used and judged, but also in the connotation in which they are used....especially in conjunction with other factors.

    8. #8
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      For now here is a sanke with a bit "unbalanced" pattern... 95 All Japan Champ
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      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

    9. #9
      emmalou is offline Inactivated
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      Thanks Bob..so the "unbalanced" area in this koi is the beni? If there was a bit more the left side he would be balanced? And he is a JC so what do they overlook then when judging..or is this an allowable trait?

    10. #10
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      But is it really "unbalanced"?

      Actually that picture kind of represents the symetrical verses assymetrical balancing of the pattern to me. as the beni wras over the Koi's left gill plate, the beni a tad further back also "wraps" some and although not symterical, does tend to balance the wieghting of the other side. The indentation of pattern around the Koi's left eye is also offset with the beni immediately around the eye as well. Further back in the body, the bold beni, mid body on the Koi's right is "balanced" by the sumi on the Koi's left mid body. Again, all of these factors being assymetrical but still yielding a "balanced" overall effect...at least to me

      Steve

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    11. #11
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      Agreed Steve, a great fish that has much "depth" to it, But this is what many might consider unbalanced at first glance. Here is another possibility.. Our good Friend Tom Lansing's Sanke...None of these are menkaburi, or way unbalanced..I will keep looking for more

      yes Emmalou, I was showing the beni as "offcenter", or what some might call unbalanced....
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      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

    12. #12
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      I like this now that I am looking, and knowing what I am looking at So you are saying that there is enough sumi to balance this fish out, or at least make it"lesser" of an unbalance? So it's not neccesarily the amount of sumi or beni, but the boldness of it that can set off a fish? Am I even on the right track :o This is pertaining to Bob's first koi pic... :o

    13. #13
      emmalou is offline Inactivated
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      Ok so now looking at the second koi, it does seem to me :o that the beni is heavier on the right side? So then does the sumi make that up on the left? Although there isn't alot of sumi there...you guys know that I really truely thank you for your time..Koi for Dummies is I I am going back to the begining of this thread...the old posts... I WILL get this :o

    14. #14
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      You are on the right track EL Here is another example, this one is my friend Ray Armstrong's showa... Heavy head hi.. Been looking for one that isnt beni, but havent found it yet.. in between patients...LOL
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      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

    15. #15
      emmalou is offline Inactivated
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      Wow that really is a heavy head hi.. But the body seems balanced,so where does that leave this koi? And is the color on the pectoral fin allowed?

      Patients!!! Give them a book, tell them you are doing an online consultation

    16. #16
      Dan Blatt's Avatar
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      Emmalou - An example of Hi in the pectoral fin - Steve can fill in the blanks
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    17. #17
      Dan Blatt's Avatar
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      Unbalanced hi pattern in a sanke
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    18. #18
      emmalou is offline Inactivated
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      Thanks Dan...will that second koi ever balance out so to speak? Or is what you see is mostly what you will end up with the koi finishing?

    19. #19
      Dan Blatt's Avatar
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      Emmalou - the only thing I think will change is that more sumi will fill in some of the white area opposite the last hi marking which would finish the pattern nicely in my opinion. But to be honest not a bad sanke as it is when you consider the overall koi. Just turned 3 and is 18 inches. Picture misleading as most are. Steve - yours thoughts?

    20. #20
      schildkoi is offline Inactivated
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      In Bob's post number 19

      That is a great example of how the red in the peck actually helps to balance the wrapped beni onm the other side...thus it is NOT a distraction in the overall appeareance of the Koi.

      The picture of Tom Lansing's Sanke that bob posted was the Koi I was thinking of with the wrapped beni with the offsetting Beni towards the nose. This helps to "balnce the assymetrical patterning as I mentioned.

      Thanks for the pics Bob....great examples!

      Steve

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