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  • Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
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    Thread: Pattern...

    1. #21
      danm is offline Master Bug Photographer
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      Thanks Bob, very informative. Is the Iggy sanke yours?

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    2. #22
      Sarge's Avatar
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      Bob, thanks much! By the way, that is a very nice Sanke! Correct me if I am wrong. Since we are on pattern, a good Sanke should first have a good Kohaku pattern that is balanced, correct? As for the sumi, how much and where should it be placed on the Sanke?

      Regards,
      Tim
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    3. #23
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      Hi Dan and Tim,

      I wish this Sanke was ours. It is Scott and Jan Thompson's from here in Colorado, and it is still in Japan. It should come home this year or maybe next. You will hear much more from this koi, possibly at the All Japan Show. It was sold on the promise to keep it there until he decided if it should be entered as a 4 or 5 year old. Near perfect tategoi in my opinion. 3 years and ~22" in this picture.

      Tim, you are right. A sanke has to be a good kohaku 1st. Take away the sumi and you have a good kohaku, but remember if you take away the beni, you need to have a good bekko. The term "Tsubo Sumi" means well placed sumi. The meaning used to be (and still is in some minds) sumi only in the white area of a koi. But balance is the key. Balance in the beni placement, balance in the sumi placement. The Showa had good balance with Sumi, but not beni. Hard to see that with the sumi in the picture I posted, but it is so. This Sanke will have Tsubo Sumi. The sumi in a good sanke, to have balance is often described as a "stepping stone" pattern. So imagine walking along with comfortable steps along the back of a good sanke and you will see where they need to be. The shoulder sumi needs to usually be a bit bigger and stronger than the other steps. Especially in a larger koi, the large shoulder sumi imparts a feeling of power. Almost majestic. Smaller shoulder sumi and actually even sized (with the other sumi steps) often feels just wimpy. Sorry, don't know another way to say it.

      There is a Sanke bloodline called Jinbei that has alot more sumi in it. This Sanke's Sumi type, and my personal preference, is more of the Matsunosuke type. Less of it, but stronger. This one is mine from the same breeder as the 5 step above.

      Hope that helps.

      Best regards,

      Bob Winkler
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    4. #24
      Ray Jordan is offline The Rocket
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      Bob, That is a beautiful Sanke and not the least bit whimpy.

    5. #25
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      Thnx Rocket Found the pictures from the show that show the koi closer and a better angle. The picture of the kohaku makes it's eyes look uneven and bulging. They are not.
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    6. #26
      Ray Jordan is offline The Rocket
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    7. #27
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      Bob:
      You asked, "Which would you vote for as GC?". The Kohaku would be my choice. I like the pattern, the evenness of the beni, the cleanness of the shiro and fins. The Showa's beni seems to be past prime and I don't care for the window on the right shoulder. Beautiful fish though.
      Thanks for the pics & explanation.
      Jeff R.
      F'ubba

    8. #28
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      Jeff, excellent points my friend!
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    9. #29
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      Good Choice Jeff, and well thought out.

      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bob Winkler
      Hi Dan and Tim,

      I wish this Sanke was ours. It is Scott and Jan Thompson's from here in Colorado, and it is still in Japan. It should come home this year or maybe next. You will hear much more from this koi, possibly at the All Japan Show. It was sold on the promise to keep it there until he decided if it should be entered as a 4 or 5 year old. Near perfect tategoi in my opinion. 3 years and ~22" in this picture.

      Tim, you are right. A sanke has to be a good kohaku 1st. Take away the sumi and you have a good kohaku, but remember if you take away the beni, you need to have a good bekko. The term "Tsubo Sumi" means well placed sumi. The meaning used to be (and still is in some minds) sumi only in the white area of a koi. But balance is the key. Balance in the beni placement, balance in the sumi placement. The Showa had good balance with Sumi, but not beni. Hard to see that with the sumi in the picture I posted, but it is so. This Sanke will have Tsubo Sumi. The sumi in a good sanke, to have balance is often described as a "stepping stone" pattern. So imagine walking along with comfortable steps along the back of a good sanke and you will see where they need to be. The shoulder sumi needs to usually be a bit bigger and stronger than the other steps. Especially in a larger koi, the large shoulder sumi imparts a feeling of power. Almost majestic. Smaller shoulder sumi and actually even sized (with the other sumi steps) often feels just wimpy. Sorry, don't know another way to say it.

      There is a Sanke bloodline called Jinbei that has alot more sumi in it. This Sanke's Sumi type, and my personal preference, is more of the Matsunosuke type. Less of it, but stronger. This one is mine from the same breeder as the 5 step above.

      Hope that helps.

      Best regards,

      Bob Winkler
      Thats a neat fish ! Very nice !
      BUT
      It goes to the way I pick sanke..
      If you remove the sumi, it is a so/so Kohaku
      If you remove the hi.. it aint a very good bekko.
      The "balance" makes it a VERY nice fish.
      Thats why Sanke make people crazy....

      Kinda like stripping the hi of of a Great Showa... Is it a good utsuri ? Often not...
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    11. #31
      Bob Winkler's Avatar
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      Hmm Doug,


      Well, hopefully we can agree to disagree. I do not understand your comment about "so so" kohaku. I have seen very few 5 step kohaku's with a better pattern. The beni and sumi are unfinished, yes, but his koi is one of the best tategoi I have ever seen in person. This koi is obviously not ready to show today (or last year when the picture was taken), but should be in another year or two. I will be sure to post a picture then and I will be most interested in your thoughts.

      Best regards,

      Bob Winkler
      Best Regards,

      Bob Winkler

    12. #32
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      Kohaku

      Without treading into areas we'll be discussing in other Pattern threads, I wonder if we could take a look at a Kohaku for a moment. What pattern would this be? Is there an identifiable pattern? Is there anything of note to draw your attention? Is it balanced? In assessing this fish, what would be your initial thoughts? Thanks for your input.
      Jeff R.
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      F'ubba

    13. #33
      Ray Jordan is offline The Rocket
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      Jeff,
      I’ll start us off with a few comments. This is one of those koi that look like two totally different koi when viewed from the left or the right side. Looking at the koi from it’s right side it appears to be a lightly patterned four step. From the left it appears to be a heavily pattern two step. So this koi’s pattern is unbalanced left to right. It has a very nice nose and tail stop and nice white for most of the body. It also appears to have good conformation based on what I can see in the photo. A little heavy around the eyes for my taste. Look at the sashi(front edge) on the second step it not as even as you would prefer. This is also a issue on the part of the 2nd step that wraps from the middle of the dorsal fin on the right side. This gives a messy unclean appearance to the koi.

      All this said please remember only 20% of koi appreciation is based on pattern.

    14. #34
      Frank Mc Donald is offline Member
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      would like to see some pictures

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