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  • Results 1 to 18 of 18

    Thread: Pattern...Kiwa/Sashi

    1. #1
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      Pattern...Kiwa/Sashi

      We will be starting a new pattern thread in our series on Monday October 25. This thread will give us some illumination of the subject of kiwa and sashi as it pertains to pattern. Dr J I Phillips has graciously agreed to host this thread. As always, we welcome questions, answers and participation from everyone. I have just found it in our best interest to be sure that we have at least one very knowledgeable individual to give their attention to the thread. Bob Winkler did a grand job on Head Pattern/Insertion and Ray Jordan did an equally outstanding job on Maruten vs Larger 1st Step that continues onto the shoulder. Prior to announcing a new Pattern thread, we will find a good host and make that announcement at the beginning of the thread. Since Dr. Phillips lives in S. Africa, I am not sure whether he will begin it on Mon or Tues but it will be soon. Please wait for him to kick this thread off before posting to it. Thank you and I hope you enjoy our time as we continue to explore Pattern.
      Jeff R.
      F'ubba

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    2. #2
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
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      To start the thread off

      The literal translation of Kiwa is edge (verge, side). In Koi terms we apply it to the edge of a pattern element. It applies to the edge of a red (hi) or black (sumi) pattern element. Because the edge of a pattern tells us about its quality and the highest quality is found in the gosanke (kohaku, sanke, showa), it is usually something we discuss in terms of these varieties. The kohaku, red pattern elements on a white ground is probably the best variety to illustrate kiwa. Although kiwa means edge, we are mainly concerned with the trailing edge of the pattern, i.e. the edge of the pattern nearest the tail.

      The red pattern elements on a kohaku should be uniform in hue. Crimson red is most appreciated but other shades of red, such as persimmon and orangey red are acceptable, so long as hue is even throughout. To be considered high quality, the red must appear to be very thick as if it has been painted on with several coats and the edges of the pattern should be absolutely sharp. A clear demarcation between the red and white with no blurring of the interface is the ideal in a koi that is ready to be judged at a show.

      The best way to see this edge is to examine the trailing edge of a pattern element in a kohaku. Even in young kohaku, this trailing edge or kiwa should be very sharp. Sharp kiwa is an appreciation point and it is worth bearing in mind that blurring of the kiwa is taken as a sign of weak or fading red. So when selecting a young kohaku, look at the quality of the kiwa.

      There are two types of kiwa. The first is called kamisori kiwa. Kamisori means razor, and it describes the razor-like edge to the kiwa which runs through individual scales. The other type is called maruzome kiwa, although, Mamoru Kodama in his book also refers to it as tama giwa. Maruzome kiwa follows the outline of individual scales giving a scalloped appearance to the trailing edge of the red pattern element. Maruzome kiwa has been likened to the outline of a cherry blossom petal.
      As an example of this I have borrowed a photo from Brady Brandwood. In this example you can clearly see the trailing edge of the pattern has a scalloped appearance. It is an example of maruzome kiwa. You will also see blurring of the leading edge of the pattern. That is called sashi and we will come to that later.
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    3. #3
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
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      Razor-like kiwa

      Here is another example, borrowed from Brady, showing the razor-like kamisori kiwa at the trailing edge of the red pattern in a sanke.
      Which is the most desirable type of kiwa?
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    4. #4
      Lee B's Avatar
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      For personal preference, I like the kamisori kiwa: sharp, clean lines - perfectly delineated. Orderly (unlike my *real* life ).

      HOWEVER, if the fish's pattern is "flowery" in the first place, the scalloped kiwa would be an asset to complete the illusion.

      Lee

    5. #5
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      Which is the most desirable?

      That is an interesting question. It would almost seem to be a fashion statement of sorts. It seems to me that if either were a fine example of the phenotype it would be appreciated. Do things run in cycles in the koi world? Did everyone produce mainly Maruzome or Kamisori at one time? Is the value a product of or determined the rarety of the type? To the Japanese is the Maruzome more highly prized because of it's shape giving the appearance of a cherry blossom petal? (sentimental folks, you know) Did the Maruzome used to be seen mainly in the Dainichi bloodline (I use that term advisedly)? Does Tashio Sakai's "new style Showa" seek to display a Maruzome kiwa? Is there currently a shift in which is more appreciated? Too many questions and too little time.
      Thank You,
      Jeff R.
      F'ubba

    6. #6
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
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      Some good questions. I think Lee is on the mark.
      It is really a question of the quality of the kiwa, rather than simply the shape. Firstly, the shiroji has to be white and the hi has to be thick and dense. The transition between the two has to be sharp. What then if two Koi have dense hi and sharpkiwa, which is type is preferred? A difficult question. Maruzome kiwa was highly appreciated at the height of the Dainichi popularity. In ZNA judging, we tend to take our cues from the Japanese judges. Probably the Japanese would tend towards appreciating the Maruzome Kiwa over the Kamisori Kiwa, perhaps on the basis of it being more rarely seen and their love for cherry blossoms, rather than any true aesthetic reasons. I think too that there is a degree of personal preference which comes into this. Some like the Kamisori Kiwa as it tends to give an impression of being more" powerful and clean cut i.e. bold and strong. Others might prefer the Maruzome for its impression of being more delicate and refined, even flowery. Also, one type of Kiwa may be more suited to a particular type of pattern than the other. For example, a three step Kohaku with a bold pattern wrapping the body may look more attractive with Kamisori kiwa, whilst a Kohaku with a smaller, delicate, Inazuma-type pattern laying higher on the body may look better with Maruzome kiwa.

    7. #7
      MikeM is offline Super Member
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      I seem to recall a Japanese hobbyist commenting that he gave greater weight to maruzome kiwa in selecting a koi for showing because it is more rare to have deep Hi with maruzome, and that rarity factor was appreciated by judges. Whether the comment was an accurate observation, I do not know. I think it reflected the notion that maruzome-appearing kiwa is often fading Hi, while true maruzome kiwa is not easily identified at a young age. Until established in a breeding line, a breeder might cull it because of the impression of fading Hi. Thus, the appreciation of the rarity in days gone by.

    8. #8
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
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      Thanks Mike
      That brings us to another point. Poor or blurred kiwa can indicate fading hi. This young sanke seemed to have potential. After this photo was taken the hi improved and it took a second in Sanke size two (a very competetive class). The poor kiwa at the trailing edge of the first, hi, pattern step can be seen.
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    9. #9
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
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      The white and sumi improved but the hi faded. Now on its way to becoming a nice Bekko.
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    10. #10
      Ray Jordan is offline The Rocket
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      I agree that this thread should continue

      Jeff,
      I can understand your concerns. The heart of the koi world has been devastated by the recent quakes. I have had several conversations with a friend in Japan that was at ground zero when the quakes hit. I have been very concerned and even obsessed with the news of the koi dealers from the affected area. That said - these people are some of the hardest working, resourceful, and enterprising on this planet. Many are 2nd, 3rd and even 4th generation koi breeders. They have vowed to rebuild and breed even better koi than before. I predict they will be back sooner than most might think. One way we can help them is by insuring there is a even more appreciative market for their beautiful koi in the years ahead.

      OK, a few comments about Sashi. I have read this thread with great interest. When choosing younger koi it is very important to look at the edges of the pattern. Individual/rows of scales lay on top of the scales towards the front of the koi. This means that at the front of each hi step on the body of a koi the first red scale is inserted below/covered by a white scale. This margin appears blurred/lighter due to the stacking of white over red. On younger koi this edge (sashi) appears blurred and indicates the white(shiroji) is unfinished. You want to look for this type of sashi if you are buying a koi for the future. However the sashi should be very uniform in width. It can be 1 or 2 scales wide(not more) but it needs to be the same everywhere on the leading edges of the steps. As a koi matures and it's skin thickens and it's white scales will effectively cover/mask the leading red scales on the front of each step. This is an important element of determining if a koi is "finished."

      The hiban on the head of a koi will look different than hiban on the body. THis is because there are no scales on the head of a koi. The hi will look darker because it does not have to be viewed through a layer of scales. The leading edge of the head pattern will not have sashi(no scales) but it still needs to be evaluated carefully. It should have a very smooth, uniform, and even edge - not jagged. A jagged/ragged looking edge cries "Bye Bye Red." Compare the sashi at the leading edges of each step on the body. Sashi should all be similar on each leading edge of all the steps in young koi. Most koi finish from the back step to the front. If a young koi has a finished or finishing sashi on the last step it is a indication that the koi is starting to finish. This is not good in a 1 or 2 year old koi you want to buy for the future when it is 5-7 years old.

      Sorry, I have gone on so long about sashi but it is very important. Sashi is a key element in the overall apprearence of koi beauty. I will comment about kiwa tomorrow or the next day.

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    11. #11
      RobR's Avatar
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      Since I am looking forward too this threads continuation I would suggest that everyone take a look over on NI at the post from William Wood.
      There are some excellent pics of skin quality from one of Sakais mud pond pulls this year.
      The relevance too this thread is that not one of these fish has any visible sashi.
      I hate too make an assumption but by following this thread one would be lead too believe that these fish are finished. At least as far as the beni pigmentation is concerned.
      Correct or incorrect?
      My guess is that the beni pigment will deepen in the future given the right conditions but these fish should be ready for showing in the not too distant future.

    12. #12
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
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      Hello Rob
      The photos on the NI board are of some excellent Koi. I believe I can see some sashi at the leading edge of the hi and sumi patterns.
      Ray Jordan described sashi very nicely. The blurry pink sashi we see at the leading edge of a pattern element is due to red underlying a white scale. As we can see it through a scale, this is usually assumed to be a measure of the strength of the underlying red. A good sign for the future. When showing Koi we aim to show a specimen that is at its very peak or as we often say, finished. Finished in the sense that the koikeeper can do no more to perfect his fish. In finished Koi we want to see pattern elements with sharply demarcated edges at the back and front. This is brought about by the thickening of the white. Not all Koi that are shown are finished. Especially, in the smaller size classes. Here we have to judge Koi that have sashi. Sashi is not considered a demerit and is not penalized, providing it is confined to one or a maximum of two scales.

    13. #13
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      Am I correct in assuming that perfect sashi on a younger koi is exactly one scale wide? Two scales are acceptable but not perfect and 3 scales wide is unacceptable?

      Ray had mentioned the sashi being even as being very desirable. Is it uncommon for sashi which has a point that protrudes for a scale or two more than the surrounding sashi to finish with a nice clean edge?

      Do we see sashi up through 4 or 5 year olds, looking for a 6 - 7 year old at completion? Does two scale wide sashi take longer to complete than one scale wide sashi?
      F'ubba

    14. #14
      Ray Jordan is offline The Rocket
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      Perfect Sashi

      Sashi is the insertion of the scales at front edge of the colored step under the white scales in front of them. Sashi is used to discuss red inserted under white scales but also black inserted under white. I would not say that perfect sashi is one row vs two rows. Most important is for the sashi width to be very smooth and even. This would indicated deep and even depth to the hiban. Color can appear and you desire it to be in mulitple areas of a koi. It should be on the cuticle ontop of the scale, embedded within the scale, one the top of the dermus of the skin below the scale and also embedded within the dermus layer itself. The deeper the hi in the skin the wider the sashi. Uneven sashi would indicate uneven hi depth in the skin and/or uneven development of the white. It is unlikely that koi with uneven sashi will finish with a clean edge.

      Sashi can still be present in koi 4 -5 years old and even older koi. In fact some koi never have finished sashi. Remember Sashi indicates that the shiro is weaker than the red or black. Female koi are more likely to finish later and cleaner because of their skin type. One additional point is look carefully at koi with a narrow cut or slash into a step. Often these type of patterns with have a uneven sashi in this area. I have attached a photo of one of my koi. This is a six year old Toshio Sakai Kohaku. Look at the sashi inside of the two slashes in the 1st step. Especially the 2nd slash. THis koi is still unfinished. The color of the hi on it's head is still darker than on the rest of the body and the areas of unfinished sashi in the slashes. Will Sakura ever finish? I'll know the answer for this one koi by watching her for several more years. At this point I have to say it is unlikley but still possible.

      If and how long a koi takes to finish is part of the journey. Quality of the Hiban, shiroji, and sumi - evenness of sashi are indicators but there are no absolutes.
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      koilover is offline Senior Member
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      This has been an interesting thread. I think I'm starting to get the differences. I have been looking for a kohaku for over a year.

      What do you think of this one? This has the Maruzome kiwa, right?
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      Lori

    16. #16
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
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      Example of maruzome kiwa

      Hi Lori
      Quite right, the back edge of the pattern follows the outline of the scales. You can also see the sashi (at the leading edge of the pattern) very nicely in your photo.
      From the angle of the photograph it is difficult to judge the body shape and we cannot see the pectoral fins. The hi (red) does look nice and thick with sharp maruzome kiwa. The sashi is not more than two scales and suggests the hi is thick and that this Koi is not yet finished. The body before the tail (peduncle) is nice and thick suggesting this Koi has the potential to grow. The pattern, however, appears to lack some red towards the tail. Ideally there should be a white break before the tail but this is a too large a white break.

    17. #17
      koilover is offline Senior Member
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      Here's an overhead picture. She is only 2 years old and 23".
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      Lori

    18. #18
      Dr J I Phillips's Avatar
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      Hi Lori
      A much better camera angle. The conformation looks much better. Although perhaps the easiest to judge from a photo, pattern is not the most important of the judging criteria. Another hiban before the tail would be ideal, however, the red and white appear to be of good quality. Kohaku are my favourite too.

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