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  • Results 1 to 17 of 17

    Thread: mortar or pl stone to liner?

    1. #1
      necjeb is offline Senior Member
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      mortar or pl stone to liner?

      will stone adhere to liner if i wanted to cover the gap between water and cap?

    2. #2
      mrpig's Avatar
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      Mortar does not adhere well to liner. If you need to do this...
      Wait. First: What exactly are you trying to do? How much space is there between your cap & the water? What kind of "stone" are you planning to use for this?

    3. #3
      necjeb is offline Senior Member
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      well not sure exactly how much space yet. starting to lay block this week. i ask b/c to keep my filters and sc level with pond i will have to drop the water level a bit more trying to hide the liner that is going to show

    4. #4
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      Hmmm... is that going to affect your skimmer function? ...filters and skimmer need to be set at the optimum level. Did you not use a transit, laser, or water level to set your filters?

    5. #5
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      It is suprising but mortar will stick to a clean rubber liner. Just secure a beam level across the wall, and put the stone on top of the beam. Wait 24 hrs and lower the beam. Make sure you wait another day before you try and clean up the excess mortar or it will shake the stone loose.

      I used the mortar that is made for the veneer stone...It seems to stick the best.

      Zac
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    6. #6
      necjeb is offline Senior Member
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      filters and skimmer are not in yet all i have right now is the footer poured. just trying to think ahead

    7. #7
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      instead of attempting to fasten the stuff to side wall. the last row of block or so. go with a smaller size block for front half and then leave like a mini shelf to place the edge rock under cap stone on.

      i really don't like idea of just concrete or motor holding rock when there is nothing holding or fastening the stuff back to the wall. and prefer chicken wire or small wire mesh of some sort be used. else the stuff is going to start chipping and falling into the pond.
      Last edited by boggen; 09-07-2008 at 09:53 PM.
      Pond and Construction Forum 101 good place for any first timers to the forum. for finding resources and general info.

      Ryan

    8. #8
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      I'd use mortar, but only with reinforcement. I use plastic hardware mesh for applications like this. If you're going to install this on a vertical surface, then you'd be better off mechanically fastening the plastic hardware mesh on the horizontal top of wall (under the capstone), or fasten it on the vertical surface, as high as possible. I would not try just mortar without reinforcement like this, or else come first frost, your nice border may be adorning the bottom of your pond. I disagree with Zac on this... mortar does not stick well to epdm, in my opinion.

      If your rock is thin-enough and you can hold it in place long-enough, polyurethane adhesive might be a better choice, as it sticks really well to epdm. You could grout between the stones after it sets-up. I think tumbled stone tile would be great for this application. ...I was going to do this on my pond, but I don't mind the 2" of liner showing under the cap... It makes a good shadow line if the capstone overhangs a little (like mine does).

      I prefer plastic mesh to chicken wire... it does not rust-out.

    9. #9
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      *nods to mike* my bad, old habit from fake rock / sculptures i have done in the past. and chicken wire had that extra strength in it to hold shape wanted. vs the plastic mesh that just flopped around.
      Pond and Construction Forum 101 good place for any first timers to the forum. for finding resources and general info.

      Ryan

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by boggen View Post
      *nods to mike* my bad, old habit from fake rock / sculptures i have done in the past. and chicken wire had that extra strength in it to hold shape wanted. vs the plastic mesh that just flopped around.
      Chicken wire is certainly better than no reinforcement.

    11. #11
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      Sorry I didn't pay attention to the region. I have no worries of frost in my area so that wouldn't make a difference.

      As to mortar not sticking to liner...I had to use a crow bar to get some of the stones to come off of the liner after a few days of curing. I would say that was stuck pretty well!

      Zac
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    12. #12
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      i am still iffy on your statements zac. my experience has been only time a plastic or rubber sticks to concrete. is when folds of the plastic/rubber has been entrapped into the concrete. and it is the folds that are holding things. and keeping the concrete from slipping away and off. vs concrete sticking to plastic/rubber/liner. other words a fold is trying to act like part of a mesh. and have found as soon as that hair line crack happens. that the concrete will start to slip away.
      Pond and Construction Forum 101 good place for any first timers to the forum. for finding resources and general info.

      Ryan

    13. #13
      arthursmall is offline Junior Member
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      is there an optimum height for the top of the skimmer opening relative to the water level

    14. #14
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      Quote Originally Posted by arthursmall View Post
      is there an optimum height for the top of the skimmer opening relative to the water level
      On Savio skimmers, there is a line molded in the plastic that shows the optimum water level. I keep the water level (on my skimmer) as high as possible, while still maintaining enough clearance from the water level to the top of the throat for debris to flow under.

    15. #15
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      Maybe it has something to do with the type of mortar I was using. Like I said it is specially designed for stone veneer application and has extra adhesives in the mix because it is intended for vertical applications.

      Here is a link to what I used...http://www.sakrete.com/products/prod...neVeneerMortar

      Like I said earlier...This stuff was extremely tough and asome pieces required a crowbar to remove it from the liner. Also when the mortar was taken off of the liner you could see a chemical reaction had taken place between the liner and the mortar and some of the rubber would come off with the mortar.

      Either way I won't press the issue because you are in a frost zone.

      Zac
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    16. #16
      boggen's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by ZP Construction LLC View Post
      Maybe it has something to do with the type of mortar I was using. Like I said it is specially designed for stone veneer application and has extra adhesives in the mix because it is intended for vertical applications.

      Here is a link to what I used...http://www.sakrete.com/products/prod...neVeneerMortar

      Like I said earlier...This stuff was extremely tough and asome pieces required a crowbar to remove it from the liner. Also when the mortar was taken off of the liner you could see a chemical reaction had taken place between the liner and the mortar and some of the rubber would come off with the mortar.

      Either way I won't press the issue because you are in a frost zone.

      Zac
      was there good spreading of the stuff so no voids / "pockets of were water would not accumulate" were left in the stuff when you tore some out?
      Pond and Construction Forum 101 good place for any first timers to the forum. for finding resources and general info.

      Ryan

    17. #17
      Zac Penn is offline Supporting Member
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      Nah...If you put a generous amount of mortar on the back of the stone and then lightly tap it with your fist, the mortar spreads evenly. The few pieces that I had to remove had a smooth as glass feel to the mortar with no water pockets.

      I guess you are asking this because of the freezing temperatures??? Even though I think it should hold up even in a freeze, I would not recommend it. The amount of expansion that water goes through when it freezes would put out pressure pretty darn close to that of a crowbar.

      Zac
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