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    Thread: genetic observations

    1. #1
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      genetic observations/parents/baby longfins pictures

      What little I have read about koi genetics, there does not seem to be much knowledge about it.

      I read an article in one of my koi books about a simple study that was done.
      It suggested white koi bred to white will produce white offspring. White to yellow- the yellow will be the dominate color. Yellow to orange and orange will be the dominate color. These were solid color koi. When you get to Kohaku, sanke, etc they stated it gets more complicated with possibly more colors appearing in a spawn.

      I bred some butterfly koi this spring.

      2 Females:
      Platinum gin rin
      Yellow and white (hariwake) gin rin

      3 males:
      yellow gin rin
      orange gin rin
      orange and white gin rin

      I did not take extraordinary efforts to save all the offspring. So many were eaten by siblings and predators. I later culled the deformed. I probably have somewhere around 100 left. Some appear to have good possibilities.

      I had expected mostly gin rin. Apparently gin rin is not dominate. Less than 1/2are gin rin.

      I had no ugly colors. All fry are the same colors as the parent fish.

      I do seem to have a much higher percentage of long fin fry than what I see reported from long fin spawns done by some others. My guess is less than 5 % with regular fins and even those may be longer fins than normal as they grow.

      I only have 2 that are platimum at this point. The majority are yellow. The second highest number are hariwake (mostly yellow and white). I only have a couple of orange gin rin and a few orange and white (gin rin and wagoi).

      I will try to count percentages when I move them to larger pond for winter.

      I just thought some one might find this interesting as I did.

      Any one else have any observations about their spawnings and genetics?
      Last edited by koi4u2c; 12-05-2007 at 07:17 PM. Reason: spacing

    2. #2
      premster's Avatar
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      pics of the fry ?

    3. #3
      Alitheoldbat's Avatar
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      Yes please photos of parents and fry. Great way to learn is visual.
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      And It Harm None Do As Thou Wilt
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      There is a fine line between hobby and insanity .... at least that is what the Judge told me.

    4. #4
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      I would be glad to post pictures. I posted one once and have not been able to get one the post since.

      If someone wants me to email a couple so they can post them I can probably get them emailed.

      I have pictures of the parents taken.

      I plan to take pictures of the babys in a couple of weeks when I move them to bigger pond for winter.

    5. #5
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      attempt to send picture

      parent butterfly koi
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    6. #6
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      I think you can take photos at a lower mega pixels. That is what I usually do .

    7. #7
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      pictures of the babies. These are 2-4 inches long.
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      Last edited by koi4u2c; 12-05-2007 at 08:25 PM.

    8. #8
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      more pictures. Apparently my computer will only send one at a time. I tried 5 at once but they would not cross over.
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    9. #9
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      round three
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    10. #10
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      I raised 112 of these babies. Most all had long fins. I did not cull for color, since there are no bad colors at this time. Nature did most of the culling for me, fish and natural pond predators ate most.

      What do you think of these babies?
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    11. #11
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      a few more
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    12. #12
      BillJ is offline Senior Member
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      Since butterflies are not true koi,it would be interesting to know if all things would run true for both. Does regular finned offspring mean that at some time they were crossed with koi?

      Bill

    13. #13
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      This is my second year at purposely spawning.

      The fins may not look very long at this point, but by spring and early summer they will be much longer. Last time I culled ones with shorter fins and by the next spring, their finns had grown long and they did not need to be culled.

      I learn as I go, and for me it is fun. It is like a child opening packages at Christmas, you just never know what kind of surprise you will get.

      I will probably grow these out for 2 years and keep the best for me.
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      Last edited by koi4u2c; 12-05-2007 at 09:04 PM. Reason: typo

    14. #14
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      Bill,

      Butterfly (longfin) koi were a cross of regular/standard fin koi and a grass carp with long fins from Malasia.

      They were developed in Japan and in North Carolina at Blue Ridge Fish Hatchery at about the same time. In fact, I have not read which place bred them first, and according to what I have read it was done at close to the same time.

      I met a man showing a long fin koi at one of the shows and he was given that particular long fin from a friend. He had raised it from a spawn in his pond and he did not have any long fin koi.

      I quess they may have been crossed at one time, but it is a message for those who say butterfly are not koi. He thought he was buying koi when he obtained those parent fish. Note to all: Is your koi a koi? I quess some times one never knows......

    15. #15
      savannahrobinson's Avatar
      savannahrobinson is offline Master Photographer of Glare and Bubbles
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      Interesting observations.
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    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by koi4u2c View Post
      This is my second year at purposely spawning.

      The fins may not look very long at this point, but by spring and early summer they will be much longer. Last time I culled ones with shorter fins and by the next spring, their finns had grown long and they did not need to be culled.

      I learn as I go, and for me it is fun. It is like a child opening packages at Christmas, you just never know what kind of surprise you will get.

      I will probably grow these out for 2 years and keep the best for me.
      hope you have a big pond.

    17. #17
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      I put them in a 17,000 gallon pond for the winter. This pond is covered by a greenhouse in the winter.

      I have 25,000 gallons in various ponds and liner to build another, so they have plenty of room. I don't like to grow the butterfly koi fast. I don't think long fins develop a good form if grown too fast.

    18. #18
      koi4u2c is offline Senior Member
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      Bump

      Some one asked how old my koi were in my thread fish born and raised here. Some of the butterfly koi are from this spawn.

      After finding this thread, I wondered where a lot of these koi went. I have had several large snakes in the past. I suspect the longfins were easy prey for them.
      Nancy



    19. #19
      RickF's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by koi4u2c View Post
      I had expected mostly gin rin. Apparently gin rin is not dominate. Less than 1/2are gin rin.
      Actually, I think you just proved that gin rin is dominate.

      If gin rin was recessive and all of the possible parents were gin rin, then none of the parents could possibly carry the gene for normal scales, so 100% of the offspring would be gin rin. If gin rin is dominant, all of the parents could carry the normal scale gene. If it is a single gene and all of the parents are heterozygotic, then you should get 75% gin rin and 25% normal scales. If some of the parents are homozygotic and some are heterogotic, then you should get more than 75% gin rin. Assuming the presence of gin rin did not influence which fry survived, it looks as if more than one gene must be involved.

    20. #20
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      LOVE your longfins, Nancy!

      proudly Canadian

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