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    Results 1 to 20 of 99

    Thread: Pond Coatings, Sealers, and Liner Options

    1. #1
      Ronin-Koi's Avatar
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      Lightbulb Pond Coatings, Sealers, and Liner Options

      Most of the threads I've read have dealt with specific pond coatings and I thought it would be helpful to try to have a discussion where we can summarize as many of the options as we can. My requirements for the sealing system is that it be maintanance-free for 10+ years, highly reliable, contributes to fish health, and is aesthetically pleasing. Cost and ease of installation are also important factors.

      Here are my thoughts on some of the popular options based on what I have read after digging through koiphen and searching the web. Thanks to many people who have shared data in the past. PLEASE add your thoughts, Pros and Cons and if you have photos, please add that as well. I might come back and edit this original post as hopefully others add new information to this thread.

      EPDM Sheet Liner:
      Cheapest option, but once you add in the cost of shipping, and tape/sealants (if the wrinkles bother you), the cost starts approaching what some of the cheapest coatings might cost. Taping the wrinkles also adds to the labor involved in installation. The wrinkles are an aesthetics issue as well as potential areas where debris can deposit, so for me, taping them is a must. Can be used in a sloped wall dirt foundation, but if building a koi pond with vertical walls, a concrete collar and/or block walls to support some or most of the wall is a must to avoid wall collapse. 20 year lifetime claimed on Goodyear EPDM.

      Pricing: HaveytheKoi is the only one I know that has seamed/taped all the wrinkles of an EPDM liner. Maybe he can offer a price estimate including tapes, shipping, etc. per average sq. ft as well as labor involved? I'm guessing under $800 for a typical 20'x12'x6' pond including the expensive tape, sealants, with an allocation on budget for various liner bulkheads for several TPRs etc.

      Pros: Can be DIY, low cost, perhaps ease of installation if not taping wrinkles

      Cons: Taping wrinkles will add to installation, larger ponds will require several people to install as a large liner will be 400 pounds or more, consideration must be given to avoid punctures when going into pond, or installing things in years to come, requires bulkheads or pipe boots for penetrations.

      EPDM thinkness: 45 mil typical and recommended by most

      Here is a good thread on this kind of construction:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12806

      Polyurea:
      In my opinion, the best option if price is no object. This is not a DIY option and requires hiring a professional due to the equipment needed. I would much prefer to have a concrete or gunnite shell to apply the polyurea on, which increases the price considerably. Curing time for the concrete/gunnite needs to be considered in terms of scheduling. Some applicators spray polyurea onto geotextile fabric or slurries. Geotextile/Polyurea is not a structural support so this has to be a consideration when trying to install vertical walls. I have seen samples of polyurea on geotextile, and I would be comfortable using this option on the FLOOR of the pond assuming the dirt underneath is solid or pretty well packed down, but I would still want a solid wall to support the sides, probably using a solid footer, plus reinforced concrete blocks.

      Pricing: ~$10/sq.ft. of sprayed area for polyurea spraying. Cost of rebar, gunnite, etc. will vary with the job. BobinCa graciously posted that his gunnite job cost $5900 for 21+ yards of gunnite. Rebar and plumbing cost an additional $4000. So that is $10k then add in the cost of spraying.

      Pros: 700% elongation properties for this tough elastomer makes it durable with high confidence in success assuming knowledgable installer is used. Allows many pond design options as well as flexibility in installing pond penetrations such as TPRs, bottom drains, skimmers etc.

      Cons: Expensive, especially if used with a rebar/gunnite shell. Proper installation key or pin-holes can develop requiring patching. Not a DIY option.

      Thickness: Depends on applicator, 80 to 120 mil is what I have been told

      Good thread to read about Polyurea construction:
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=17995
      Other useful discussion about Polyurea:
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10976

      Sanitred Permaflex and LRB/TAV
      An option gaining popularity on Koiphen seems to the Sanitred products, partly I think due to BobinCa who as far as I know is the first to use this product on a "proper" koi pond. Sanitred has many apparent similar pros and cons with polyurea except that it is a product that can be DIY, and provides significant cost savings. Other threads discuss the details of the product, but essentially the Permaflex is a two-part mix that can be painted/rolled onto a firm shell such as concrete, gunnite, or concrete block. The LRB/TAV is mixed with minimum ratio of 2:1 LRB:TAV and provides a thick paste applied via troweling to fill in voids and generally smooth out the shell. Another coating of Permaflex is then applied on top of the LRB/TAV. Highly questionable if this product could be used on flexible geotextile. According to Sanitred, Permaflex literally "bonds" to concrete and other surfaces and is not just a coating adding to integrity of sealing system. Permaflex is suppose to bond well to itself allowing for easy repairs, but my understanding is that if greater than a 24 hr period has ellapsed between coats, the previous layer has to be "prepped" prior to application of new layer. Nature of prepping is unclear (someone add?)

      Misc. data: High elongation properties allow adjustment in case small non-structural cracks develop in the underlying shell. AR-Permaflex has 590% elongation properties with 2030 psi tensile strength, LRB/TAV has 650% elongation properities. Product can be cold cured and applied at above freezing temperatures.

      Cost: At this time (Sept. 05)
      AR-Permaflex is $389/5 gallons which is equivalent to $77.75/gallon (gallon pails cost a bit more). The recommended thickness is 20 mil, but I believe two coatings are needed, with each coating requiring 1 gallon for ~80 sq.ft. So if I understand it correctly, 1 gallon at 2 coats and 20 mil will cover 40 sq. ft. To account for imperfect surfaces, coverage may be lower. Then factor in the cost of LRB and TAV the use of which varies depending on surface texture and voids.
      LRB is $324/5 gallons which is equivalent to $64.75/gallon.
      TAV is $215/5 gallons which is equivalent to $$43/gallon.
      BobinCa shared that his 470 sq.ft pond required $871 (shipped) of product to cover his pond. This works out to $1.85/sq.ft.


      Pros: DIY-friendly, cost is cheaper than polyurea, advertised properties from manufacturer indicate it is well suited to provide a long lasting, high quality, and reliable finish for the pond.

      Cons: Installation cost is still not cheap as it requires a structural support not just for the vertical walls, but for the floor as well. So it is only considered cheap in relation to polyurea. At this point, longevity in koi pond applications have to be proven - many are confident it is not an issue. Clay reports that his discussions with a farmer indicate the successful long lasting use (12 years?) of this product in a non-pond application.

      Thickness: Recommended thickness is 20 mil. I would personally apply it thicker including the LRB/TAV and multiple coatings of Permaflex.

      Thread on pond using Sanitred Products:
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18602
      Discussion on Sanitred products:
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18157

      Gator Guard

      My research into Gator Guard has been minimal. I'm not sure what chemistry it has and if it is indeed the same as polyurea under a brand name?? But similar to polyurea, it can not be done DIY and requires a professional installer. Someone else may need to chime in to fill in the blanks, but here is a thread that discusses the construction of a pond using Gator Guard:
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showth...2&page=2&pp=40

      No info at this time on pricing

      CIM or CIM 1000
      This is a 2 part "liquid qpplied urethane coating" that can be applied on a structural shell like concrete or gunnite. Offers 400% elongation. Approved for potable water, so should be fish safe. Can be used with a special fabric for areas that require extra strength (I do not believe this is intended to mean it can be used on dirt floors and especially not as vertical support).

      Cost: $400/5 gallons (corrected) with recommended 60 mil or 1/16 inch thickness, 1 gallon covers 18 sq. ft. so pricing is $4.44/sq.ft. Again, the shell price must be added.

      Pros: Similar to advantages of Sanitred

      Cons: Similar to disadvantages of Sanitred, more expensive than Sanitred products

      Others please chime in on differences between these various products.

      Pond Armor's Pond Shield
      A DIY 2-part mix epoxy product applied to firm structural support. Producer advertises the products use for sealing wooden construction ponds. Single coat provides the recommended 10 mil. Can be touched up and recoated up to 72 hours without additional prep. Piping requires sanding for improved adhesion. This product can be used with fiberglass, tape, etc. to improve strength (Again, this is not intended for bare dirt application). This thick formulation is suppose to avoid sag on vertical applications. No primer or sealant needed.

      Cost: $75/1.5 quart kit provides coverage of 60 sq.ft at 10 mils. This is $1.25/sq.ft. Add in the cost of proper shell.

      Koi Kote
      Use to be sold by Pond Armor, but appears to have been replaced by Pond Shield.

      Bondglass-Voss G4
      Popular product used in the UK. Moisture cured Polyurethane uses moisture in the air and substrate to cure. Can be applied down to 0 C temperatures. Must be applied onto cement rendering as porous concrete block is too open and absorbent. Render must not contain water proofing additives. Recommended rendering = 1/2" thick. G4 will not bond to PVC.

      Cost: ?

      Hecht Rubber:
      Requires cleaning of the concrete or gunnite pond with TC-700 product. Then application of P-SC primer. Three coatings of Black or gray H-55 neoprene rubber is then applied by brush. Dry time is quick between coatings of 60 minutes. Cure time is 24 hrs. 72 hrs to introduce fish. Reportedly provides very good bonding.

      Cost:
      Black H-55 rubber = $110/gallon, 1 gallon covers between 80 to 100 sq. ft.
      TC-700 cleaner = $55/gallon
      P-SC = $59/gallon
      Making a guess at the usage of primer and cleaner at 1/3 as much as the rubber, I'll estimate a cost of $1.65/sq.ft.

      Pros: advertised qualities sound great.

      Cons: reports on Koiphen indicate quite a few users have experienced pealing of the coating after a year or two of use. Undetermined if proper application procedures were used. Another user reported no problems after several years.

      Here is a recent thread on Hecht:
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24716

      Liquid-Roof.com
      EPDM and curing catalyst. Web-site indicates non-immersion application. Cannot be applied to porous blocks, must use primer. Elongation at 180 to 200%, with tensile strength at 680 psi.

      Cost: $372 (shipped)/5 gallons, at ~200 sq.ft. coverage, at 20 mils thick, equates to $1.86/sq.ft.

      Whew... that's about all I can contribute at this point. I hope this is helpful to others in my situation trying to decide what type of sealing system they want to use on their pond. EVERYONE, please chime in with your opinions, experiences, and recommendations. But please keep it FRIENDLY.

      ** New Info Added Below - Additional Options suggested by others:

      Pre-formed Pond (JanetMermaid's list):
      These are the ready to install single piece shells. Varies from the economical small units available at Home Depot, to the large pre-formed 1500 gallon pond available from WLim, which comes ready made for bottom drains and TPRs.
      Pros: Inexpensive (unless you want Lim's unit which is over $2000 not including shipping), no wrinkles, puncture resistant, and DIY friendly.

      Cons: Typically the water capacity is not sufficient for koi, unless you get the large one from Lim (!), shapes are limited to the pre-forms, so no mods possible.

      Thoroughseal (SherryM's list)
      Who makes it, what is it, how is it applied, any data on elongation or durability?
      Cost: ?? Pros: ??? Cons: ????

      Super Bond 8 (SherryM's list)
      What is it? SherryM's pond builder likes Super Bond 8 more than Thoroughseal. Cost: ?, Pros: ?, Cons: ?

      Pebbletech (SherryM's list)
      Used for pool coatings, what is it? DIY friendly? Cost for SherryMs pool re-finishing is $5800. Pros: ?, Cons: ?

      - Wayne, typed all of this with only one cup of coffee.
      Last edited by Ronin-Koi; 09-20-2005 at 10:02 AM.
      Wayne - Ohio, USA - Koiphen MVP.

    2. #2
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      Wayne,
      Very nicely done.
      What you see is much less a matter of what you're looking at than where you're looking from.

      I don't know much, but there's quite a bit that I choose to believe.

    3. #3
      JanetMermaid's Avatar
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      Comparison chart

      Wayne, Nice job. Here's a table I did for a presentation. It doesn't include all of the products you cover, but it does compare the most popular:

      Last edited by JanetMermaid; 09-18-2005 at 06:00 PM.
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    4. #4
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      Some Other Options you might want to add to the mix--

      Thanks for putting together such a nice synopsis of the various sealant options all in one post.

      I too am trying to decide what to seal my pond and waterfalls with. I recently consulted with a pool, pond, and waterfall builder in my area about possible sealers to use over gunite. He's been in the business for about 20 years, comes highly recommended, and has done some incredibly beautiful stuff that has stood the test of time. He said that in the past he used thoroughseal on his koi ponds, but now he uses a product that he considers superior called "Super Bond 8" (I think that is what he called it, but I haven't been able to find out anything about it by googling). He has been using it for a number of years with great success, no peeling or cracking, etc. I know nothing about either thoroughseal or this Super Bond product, but I think they might both be a cement based, plaster like sealant. Would be nice to add them to your list and hear what, if anything, others know about them.

      Another option that you might want to consider is pebble tech (the stuff they use in swimming pools). It's a bit pricey (don't know how much/sq. ft. but we are having our swimming pool refinished with it and it will cost about $5800). I'm planning to get a bid for having my koi pond sealed with it too, although I expect it will come in considerably over budget for the koi pond.

      Looking forward to following this thread.
      SherryM

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    5. #5
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      Gatorgard and polyurea are essentially the same thing, slightly different formula, but polyurea formulas vary even among the installers of "pure" polyurea.



      Perhaps you should add the various epoxy paint mixes (sweetwater, nelsonite poolpoxy).

      Janet, your chart is nice, but shouldn't it have the disclaimer that concrete/gunite ponds require an additional sealer?
      Koiphen member since 05-13-2004
      This one time, at band camp....

    6. #6
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      Ronin G4 is quite expensive, from memory comperable to the cost of actually glassing a pond.
      There is also a "water soluable" epoxy pond paint called P1, however in the states that may well be very close to a food safe, commercial kitchen, wall paint that may be significantly cheaper.
      I used P1 to seal my shoreline and it is coming up on 3 years old now, it seems fine but like, I assume, all paints it objects to heavy rocks being dropped on it. Clear pond paint like G4 and P1 seem to change the colour of the underlying 'cement', P1 darkened my green shore line which was an effect I liked, so I will be applying it to the imitation rock wall I made a few weeks ago. I have seen G4 applied to an imitation Cotswold stone collar around a shop's koi holding tank and it seemed to have deepened the yellow or buff of that. I believe G4 should be kept away from pvc liners but that isnt likely to be a major problem in the US, it is one reason why I used P1
      Last edited by seanmckinney; 09-19-2005 at 05:41 AM.

    7. #7
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      Polyurea Samples

      Thanks for the replies so far everyone. Hopefully, we will get a few more replies, and then I'll do another edit to include inputs we have gotten so far onto the first post.

      For those that have not seen polyurea before, below are two samples that were provided to me by applicators. On the right, which happens to be gray, is a polyurea sample from Keirin Koi which is about 80 mils thick. On the left is a sample from Poly-Pro Coatings which is black polyurea sprayed onto geotextile -- that combo is about 120 mils thick. Below the black poly is a piece of the same material flipped over to show what the geotextile material looks like. Both pieces are bendable, but seems to be really tough. I would feel pretty comfortable about the durability especially if on blocks or gunnite.

      - Wayne, really likes polyurea, but is leaning away from it due to it not being a DIY option and also due to the cost barrier.
      Attached Images Attached Images  
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    8. #8
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      Wayne, great summary! That is a nice service to us. A couple of other notes that could be added: the polyurea cost is the installed cost, whereas the others are for raw materials. So while polyurea is still awfully expensive, the comparison is not as bad when you consider the cost of installation. On the other hand, there can also be extra charges for polyurea application for all of the protruding items, one charges $75 extra for each TPR pipe going through the liner, for example. Yet again on another hand, polyurea comes with an installation guarantee (others are for material only). This can vary, 1 or 2 years. For an expensive long-lasting product, I wish the guarantee was longer, though; you would think that if polyurea lasted a year or two with no problem, it should then last 10 or 20. A little strange--polyurea over geotextile has the reputation of being more reliable than without geotextile, but PolyPro (has geotextile) has a 1-year guarantee while GatorGard (no geotextile) has a 2-year guarantee. Don't know about Keirin Koi's (no geotextile) guarantee.
      When you feel those polyurea samples, the one with geotextile in it seems stronger, but my understanding is that the geotextile doesn't add much if any strength--it is just a better surface for the polyurea to be sprayed on.

    9. #9
      Ryan S.'s Avatar
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      Thanks for putting all that stuff together. It seems like things that are so easy to accoplish in pools everyone has trouble doing in ponds. I'm thinking about a large project comming up, in the works. I will probably be concrete block walls and poured bottoms. Surewall on the blocks and another sealer or paint over that.

    10. #10
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      Sanitred Bonding

      Part of the advertised advantage of Permaflex from Sanitred is that it "bonds" to the concrete substrate. I am wondering what restrictions there might be on the underlayment that can be used. So far, BobinCa and Goose who have used the product on ponds applied it over a continuous surface.

      If applying it over concrete blocks, has anyone figured out if some kind of surface coating is needed due to the rough, porous blocks and the mortar joints? What would you use to surface coat the blocks? What kind of mix do they use as "render" over in the UK? Someone mentioned (Kent Wallace?) that he mixes acrylic with the concrete (?) for the surface coating. My concern is that the acrylic or any plasticizer might inhibit the bonding of the Sanitred product.

      I was also considering using surewall on the common wall separating my pond from the filter pit for added strength. Is surewall a suitable "rendering?" I have never used it before.

      - Wayne, always looking for more opinions and suggestions.
      Wayne - Ohio, USA - Koiphen MVP.

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      A few things

      I don't want to turn this into a "bashing" thread, but....... First off, CIM is anywhere from $40 to $65 per gallon and covers 25 sq ft...big difference than what was actually posted.

      Second off, The Mermaid's comparisons is way outa whack (gee, I have said that before a few times). Polyurea is a sealant, not a structural compound...FACT. Gunite is a structural base and not a sealant...FACT. Attempting to compare the two is apples and oranges and I continually have to keep calling her and others on the carpet over this.

      One option I don't see listed which for a sealing system is by far "the best" is fiberglass. Yes, its also the most expensive as well and when applied on a proper structure is smooth and permanent, easily repaired (although I haven't ever seen one that had to be repaired.

      Construction methods vary as do sealants and possibilities between the two...remember folks, you should be working with an entire "System", not individual components.

      Steve

    12. #12
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      Gotta couple of questions that I'm not clear on:
      Is fiberglass a viable option in the U.S.? From what I've read, it is not advisable to DIY fiberglass; however, we don't have anyone in the U.S. doing it for ponds, do we? (And why is that, I wonder? I bet some of the polyurea installers would be installing fiberglass if they thought it was a better option.)
      This is rather basic, but I don't know the "why": why are swimming-pool-type finishes not used? They obviously hold water, but when people convert pools to ponds, they seem to put on a different liner. Is the surface bad for koi?

    13. #13
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      CIM Pricing.

      Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi
      ... CIM is anywhere from $40 to $65 per gallon and covers 25 sq ft...big difference than what was actually posted.
      Thanks for the comments Steve. I did make a typing mistake above and wrote $400/gallon, instead of $400/5 gallons, which I will correct. However, the price per sq.ft I wrote above is correct and is based on the website that I found on CIM. I had to double check my information to make sure I wasn't going bonkers, but the website below, which is where I got my pricing and coverage data lists $400/5 gallons which works out to $80 per gallon. And they state one gallon covers 18 sq.ft. at 60 mils thick, which works out to $4.44 per sq.ft. The CIM is about 80% down on the long products page.

      http://www.pondshop.com/catalog/const.htm

      That's the only place I found that sells it. Let me know of cheaper options. Thanks.

      Regarding your comments on structural characteristics of polyurea, I do not disagree, and I hope my above comments on it reflect my opinion on the need for sound structural support if using it on vertical walls of any height.

      Thanks for the reminder on fiberglass. It isn't really an option for me so I have done no research on it. Can you share any specifics on cost, pros, cons? It sounds like a great option for the UK and I'll definitely add it to the list above when I do my next edit.

      Quote Originally Posted by schildkoi
      Construction methods vary as do sealants and possibilities between the two...remember folks, you should be working with an entire "System", not individual components.
      Agree, which is part of the reason I'm trying to understand what is a suitable substrate for the Sanitred products and if additives in the rendering might inhibit bonding.

      - Wayne, wonders why fiber glassing isn't used more in the US.
      Wayne - Ohio, USA - Koiphen MVP.

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      Take a look at CIM's web site and their coverage chart for 1061...Adobe doesn't let me do a copy and paste unfortunately

      http://www.cimind.com/

      For 60 mils, dry thickness the coverage area is: 24 sq ft per gallon (applied at 68 mils

      For a 45 mil dry finish, it is applied at 51 mils and covers 31 sq ft per gallon.

      CIM 1000 is the exact same formula as the potable water 1061 but simply does not have the certification for potable water necessary for municiple water systems..in other words, they charge more for the certification for the same product. I have purchased CIM 1000 for as low as $45 per gallon and 1061 for as low as $85 per gallon. If there is a local dealer (check w/ CIM using their 1800 number) you can save a bunch on Hazardous material shipping.

      Fiberglass has been done in the US, and is more prevelant in areas where there are fiberglass people available. Its more costly but provides the best surface possible when done correctly.

      Steve

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      Wayne,

      The taping of the folds added quite a bit to the cost. The tape alone in a 100' roll is almost $300 and due to my shape there were a lot of folds. In a more squared off pond the major folds would be in the cornmers and cost a little less.

      My quoted price for just the pond shooting poly over geotextile was $4K. The river would have been a big extra due to all the work. There's enough liner and tape left over to handle that so not counting my labor the savings were close to $3K-$4K.

      The other downside to the poly was I was told they couldn't garantee me a smooth finish and they would not garantee my connections: Standard bottom drains, TPR's with screwed on clamps and a pool type skimmer. At that point I really questioned the extra cost.

      Garrett

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      Sanitred products w/concrete blocks

      Quote Originally Posted by Ronin-Koi
      Part of the advertised advantage of Permaflex from Sanitred is that it "bonds" to the concrete substrate. I am wondering what restrictions there might be on the underlayment that can be used. So far, BobinCa and Goose who have used the product on ponds applied it over a continuous surface.

      If applying it over concrete blocks, has anyone figured out if some kind of surface coating is needed due to the rough, porous blocks and the mortar joints? What would you use to surface coat the blocks? What kind of mix do they use as "render" over in the UK? Someone mentioned (Kent Wallace?) that he mixes acrylic with the concrete (?) for the surface coating. My concern is that the acrylic or any plasticizer might inhibit the bonding of the Sanitred product.

      I was also considering using surewall on the common wall separating my pond from the filter pit for added strength. Is surewall a suitable "rendering?" I have never used it before.

      - Wayne, always looking for more opinions and suggestions.
      Wayne,

      The Permaflex product would be the first coat....acting as a primer coat.
      You would follow that up with the use of LRB + TAV to fill any joints/seams.
      Permaflex, then, would be the third coat or top coat bonding to both the LRB and the primer coat as well.

      The primer coat of Permaflex mechanically bonds to the concrete or blocks.
      Subsequent coats of either LRB/tav and Permaflex all molecularly bond to each other.

      BobinCA

    17. #17
      Kent Wallace's Avatar
      Kent Wallace is offline The luckiest man in the world
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      Mark, Steve is right but the place to look for fiberglass installers is the pool repair industry. There are a lot of fiberglass swimming pools out there and an entire industry of repair guys that take care of them. That group can also render an entire pond if necessary. It's just not common here in the US as a pond surface. Janon's brother is a fiberglass pool repair contractor in Ca. and is very good at it. I'd be happy to recomend him for anyone in the LA area that would want to fiberglass a concrete pond.

    18. #18
      Moneypit's Avatar
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      Cim1000

      I found CIM1000 trowel grade for $246.00 per 5 gallons at a outlet in canada and was told it needed to be applied one gallon per 20 sqft, this is what I plan on using for my concrete pond.

      Stacey

    19. #19
      Harveythekoi is offline Senior Member
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      Kent,

      You got a rough idea on the sq ft price for something like that?

      I don't see why the chopper gun method wouldn't be able to be used even over something less structural. I mean they make plenty of boats that way so if it can keep water out and be that sturdy it should keep water in and be just as strong. You can order custom fiberglass pools that just slip in a dirt hole with a sand base, looked into that also but they didn't have anything appealing shape wise off the shelf where the money savings are.

      Garrett

    20. #20
      Meg is offline Senior Member
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      thanks for all the info everyone, very helpful

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