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  • Results 1 to 16 of 16

    Thread: Jitai...

    1. #1
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      Jitai...

      Perhaps some of our Judges can give us a better understanding of the concept of Jitai. JPR said that this is the "relationship between body and skin type". Can you gentlemen elaborate on this concept for us to give a clearer understanding and perhaps minimal working knowledge? Thanks in advance.
      F'ubba

    2. #2
      koidoc's Avatar
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      Jitai

      I am not familar with this term

    3. #3
      Canadian RedNeck's Avatar
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      borrowed from, mike snaden, yume koi, "choosing a koi with a future," june 2003

      Jitai is the height of the body of the koi between the back of the head and the highest point of the body.

    4. #4
      danm is offline Master Bug Photographer
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      I've not heard the term either, but a quick google returned this...........

      Jitai means 'height' and quite literally refers to the height of the body of the fish. Don't be fooled that a hump behind the head is a good thing, as this isn't Jitai and has no bearing on size. Jitai is the height of the body of the koi between the back of the head and the highest point of the body. A good strong curve up over the back of the koi is a good attribute and a key factor in determining size potential, as well as helping determine the kind of body shape the koi will develop. Also, when looking at Jitai, you will often see that it is prominent in such a way that it looks as if the koi will be able put on more weight in the shoulder area. This can help you understand the way the shape will develop. One thing that you should remember is that good Jitai is important, but it is still possible to have a koi that has too much height, which will make the fish look short in relation to its build. However, Jitai is often less prominent in koi descendant of 'magoi' blood, so bear in mind the background of the fish in question.Never choose a fish primarily for its pattern. This can only lead to long-term disappointment This Omosako Shiro Utsuri of 51cm is the epitome of sumi quality! Omosako talked of the sumi quality of this koi as being unique!

    5. #5
      koidoc's Avatar
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      OH, well if that is Jitai, bring it on

      I have been teaching the importance of this for years just did not know the name. I thought Jitai were Knights in Star Wars.
      Height at the Shoulders is very important in buying a fish for long term and for maximum growth potential. Minimum koi to stay in my pond is female, 20 " at 3yo, 24" at 4yo and then at least 26" by 5 or 6 to stay.
      I refer to Jitai as three dimensional confirmation. We try to share this information at our AKCA Judging seminars and I believe important in Judging rather than just from the top down.
      The simplistic saying use to be if you had several fish of equal quality, put them in a bowl with shallow water. The one that sticks up the farthest buy.
      As stated there is height that is good and height that is bad. It all has to be proportionate and have a smooth transition from the head to the body. Growth and skin are the two most important things to look at. Then comes pattern.
      Growth and potential for growth has to be looked at from many sides. There is the bone structure which is reflected in the Jitai.We also look at:
      1. width across the shoulders
      2. head proportion as far as mouth pointy or rounded
      3. width between the eyes
      4. distance between the tip of the nose and the beginning of the dorsal
      5. distance between the back of the dorsal to the tail
      6. the width of the peduncle
      7. the height and distance aound the peduncle
      8. size of the tail and pectorals
      9. width of body through the mid-section
      10. depth of stomach
      11. muscle proportion on the body vs fat
      12. size of mouth
      13. slope of head from the highest point on the fish to the nose
      You see it is very easy. Just put all these together and you can predict the future growth and body of the fish.
      When all this is right, then and only then, can you go to Skin texture and gloss, then color, then balance.
      I will leave you with this one tid-bit to remember.
      "I have never seen a large fish with a little mouth or a small fish with a large mouth."
      Buy a koi like a dog. Look for good bone structure. If you want a big dog look for one with big feet(pectorals) and a big mouth to eat alot.
      Hope this helps.
      JMHO
      JR may think I am wrong.

    6. #6
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Jitai translates to ‘surface of the ground’ and was first used by members of the ZNA’s Hiroshima chapter some 30 years ago. It was a word meant to express that special relationship/ union between texture of skin(Ji- specifically the shiroji) and the body ( tai) itself.
      This word is used specifically when you are talking about the construction of a high quality koi. So a koi with soft white skin and a strong body has fundamental elements of quality. And good jitai is soft white ground on excellent bone structure.
      This is not the same thing as the height of the koi’s body, although a tall wide shoulder is one part of the total ingredients needed for good jitai. I can see where one would get confused if a breeder where to point to the high very soft white shoulder and say- “ jitai”. It is understandable that an English speaking dealer would interpret that lesson as a comment about the body only. But jitai is more than bone structure. It is a confirmation of quality based on a certain ‘look’ of skin and body.
      This lesson of jitai is usually followed by another- the ‘fit’ of the pattern on different types of jitai-----

      JR

    7. #7
      koidoc's Avatar
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      So

      So it is like Tsubo denoting a theory of perfect rather than a specific spot. But I did give a good explanation of body height. So that is why I never heard of it. It is a nirvana type of thing rather than a touchable thing

    8. #8
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Right Art, it IS right there for all to see but sort of a 'sub-text' in the conversation. As you know, the Japanese love to take things 'apart' and define each element of the fish. This is part of the definition of quality. In this case you would go--

      1) body type- enhanced or ruined by skin texture.
      2) jitai- the combination of good body ( length, height, shoulder, backbone) and excellent shiroji texture covering all.
      3) pattern- both the general 'fit' on the body and quality of the color. Good jitai with its good soft pure shiro will enhance the beni and therefore the color of the pattern. All making for that quality look to the pattern.
      JR

    9. #9
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      danm quotes, "Never choose a fish primarily for its pattern"
      koidoc says, "As stated there is height that is good and height that is bad. It all has to be proportionate and have a smooth transition from the head to the body. Growth and skin are the two most important things to look at."
      JPR says. "This is part of the definition of quality. In this case you would go--
      1) body type- enhanced or ruined by skin texture.
      2) jitai- the combination of good body ( length, height, shoulder, backbone) and excellent shiroji texture covering all.
      3) pattern- both the general 'fit' on the body and quality of the color. Good jitai with its good soft pure shiro will enhance the beni and therefore the color of the pattern. All making for that quality look to the pattern."

      So let's try to pull all of this together. First we set our favorite part (pattern) aside. Then we look at shiroji (the white background or canvas), then we look at the conformity of the koi. Once this has been firmly entrenched in our minds we are able to consider the QUALITY of the koi? When we say shiroji, are we talking about the cotton versus silk style? Once all this is fixed, do we look at the quality (skin type, conformation and so on) and LASTLY the pattern? Seems confusing, does this sound right?
      F'ubba

    10. #10
      koidoc's Avatar
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      Yes

      Yes Jeff and that sounds right as far as the oreder my eye looks when I am buying. I little over simplified since you always look at the whole fish, but yes that is a good transition.
      Body is very important or nothing else matters.
      Then Skin is also important or nothing else matter.
      Then color and the most imporatnt color of a koi is white if it has it.

    11. #11
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Well sure that is fine to look at it that way. I like to see koi however from the ground up! Meaning a koi is first bone, then dermis and epidermis, then color and finally pattern.
      The details of these 'building' steps is WHERE the quality IS.

      So jitai focuses on the fundamantal relationship between body and skin. IF you have good jitai you will have the potential for a very good koi. If Jitai is poor, you can NOT have a good koi- ever. Even if the pattern is attractive to the beginner's eye, it is a fundamentally flawed animal. This is were grades of koi come in.

      There are both artistic and economical aspects to this. No beni is good if it is built on poor shiro ground. And average beni can look better if it is on excellent shiro ground.

      When a breeder looks at a koi, he sees the chassis and the fundamantal quality of the shiro ground- then the beni/sumi quality and finally the pattern.
      A beginner only sees the pattern and the brightness of the color.

      I have been to many a show where the crowd is in love with a doitsu showa. Why? Because it is bright and vivid. But the koi typically has very poor Jitai and is truly a flash in the pan in terms of durability and fundmental quality. Indeed a breeder/dealer knows such a fish is a cheap fish but will sell it at a premium to someone who has no idea of Jitai or other basic facts about koi. So this is all not so much art, it has a very practical aspect to it.

      JR

    12. #12
      koidoc's Avatar
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      I thought

      I thought that is what I said, did I over simplify again.
      Body>skin>color>balance(not pattern)
      pattern is too ruley a word
      If you got all this theh you have Jitai or what I call an "orgasmic fish"
      look that one up

      Let me try an experiment
      "the sky is blue"
      Jim?

    13. #13
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Art! Easy big fella! I was responding to Jeff ,who was going down 'into' the koi from pattern inward. I simply reversed the order to illustrate that a koi is built from the ground up. The point being, that if the fundamental Jitai is flawed the koi can not really accomplish too much other than try and hide that fact. A koi of good jitai will always be a joy to own even if it is not a fish blessed with a great show pattern.

      I once owned a kohaku with really excellent jitai. But the pattern? The pattern was a large red triangle on the fishes head! I loved that fish and as I traded up, it was the last one I parted with- the fish taught me a lot. Perfect --and I mean perfect, body. Beautiful porcelain skin, like a fine china. This was always the first fish that caught my eye when the school would rush from the other side of the pond to greet me and dinner.
      Good pattern is definite 'eye candy'. But good Jitai will have the soul of a serious koi student floating on air!
      JR

    14. #14
      koidoc's Avatar
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      Just pulling your chain buddy

      I know what you were responding to.
      Of course you are right no matter what you call it.
      We are at the level where we have traded up from any slight defect.
      Some skin, some color, some body defects.
      We do not keep the fish too long if it does not have the whole package. Any little thing for us distracts our eye.
      Body and skin are utmost for me now ,to even start looking.
      So let me call this thing that I have always called the whole package now call it "Jitai". Even though it has specific elements in its package it is these elements that I find important anyway.
      Cool?

    15. #15
      JPR is offline Inactivated
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      Agreed. it is like that judge and his discription of porno- I know it when I see it!
      JR
      Last edited by Jeff R.; 05-02-2005 at 10:58 AM.

    16. #16
      Jeff R. is offline Senior Member
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      Thank you gentlemen. This has been very informative and much appreciated.
      F'ubba

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