Shusui Breeding 2025

[Matt24]

Sounds like some good numbers, especially from small oyagoi. Thanks for the update and photos. It's interesting seeing how you do this, as I've never tried raising fry in a mud pond.

Here is one thread had lots of mud pond spawns over several years.
https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...-with-a-twist-)

[Coldspringsfarm]

Sounds like some good numbers, especially from small oyagoi. Thanks for the update and photos. It's interesting seeing how you do this, as I've never tried raising fry in a mud pond.

Here is one thread had lots of mud pond spawns over several years.
https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...-with-a-twist-)

Well I am flying blind, aside from what I have been able to pick up from YouTube videos about Japanese breeding techniques. That thread you shared is how I found koiphen last year. Was googling Shusui breeding and it popped up. I've read quite a bit of the thread and most of her website. Good stuff!

Sent from my SM-A146U1 using Tapatalk

[Coldspringsfarm]

I went down to the mud pond 3 times today for feeding. I am basically just spreading fry powder around the entire pond 3 times a day. I am occasionally spotting some of them in the shallows but not getting much intel otherwise. There were 2 or 3 floaters yesterday after the release, but didn't see anything dead today so that is promising.

Sent from my SM-A146U1 using Tapatalk

[Matt24]

... There were 2 or 3 floaters yesterday after the release, but didn't see anything dead today so that is promising.

When they're that small, they seem easy to injure while netting. If you moved 1000 and lost 3, I'd call it a good day.

[Coldspringsfarm]

When they're that small, they seem easy to injure while netting. If you moved 1000 and lost 3, I'd call it a good day.

I was going to ask you guys about that. I had quite a few fry that after netting they would lie motionless on the top for the better part of a minute. I thought they were dying so I put them in a separate container, but most of them would recover and start acting normal again. Is that normal or a sign of a problem? If they are that sensitive to energy expenditure makes me realize the importance of minimizing water flow in the tank.

Second question, do you guys see a fair number of fry swimming sideways or occasionally upside down? I have noticed this in the Shusui fry tank. They seem to be actively feeding but just aren't always staying properly oriented. I have not noticed this in the Kosui tank yet but they are much younger.

Sent from my SM-A146U1 using Tapatalk

[Orlando]

My loses during transfer are minimal if not close to nothing. Never seen them remain there motionless they always go straight down. Never experienced fry swimming side ways or upside down that's new to me but I've read that crossing doitsu to doitsu seems to bring some development/health issues wondering if that's what you're seeing.

[Matt24]

... I had quite a few fry that after netting they would lie motionless on the top for the better part of a minute. ... but most of them would recover and start acting normal again. ... If they are that sensitive to energy expenditure makes me realize the importance of minimizing water flow in the tank.

I might have seen a few do that, but not many. Most just go right back to normal swimming. I commonly run a 300 GPH pump in about 400 gallons of water in the first few weeks when the fry are tiny. So that's quite a bit of flow.

Second question, do you guys see a fair number of fry swimming sideways or occasionally upside down? I have noticed this in the Shusui fry tank. They seem to be actively feeding but just aren't always staying properly oriented ...

Now that I can't say that I recall seeing.

... I've read that crossing doitsu to doitsu seems to bring some development/health issues ....

Well 25% die upon hatching in Doitsu-Doitsu spawns because they get a double dose of that dominant N gene. I've read that and seen it. As for other issues as fry get older, I have not noticed much issue in most spawns. But that Russian study did claim little Doitsu koi tend to be smaller and weaker on average than fully scaled ones. I have not noticed much difference, but I suspect he documented a lot more specimens.

[Coldspringsfarm]

Thanks for the input. I think there might have been some issues caused by over crowding. My water parameters were always ok but kinda wondering if 1500+ fry in close quarters wasn't causing some pathogens to spread. I read something about carp farming where *swim bladder disease" is a big problem in facilities that try to push fry numbers.

It has been 4 days since I moved the 1000 fry over and I feel like the remaining tank fry(400-500) have stopped displaying the sideways swimming and odd behavior. I am still concerned about the growth, or lack thereof, on a lot of them. They are around a month old at this point and quite a few look the same as they did at 1 week old. There are exceptions, starting to see some "tobi" fry...but they are honestly closer to the size I would expect at 1 month old. The other possible issue is the water temps in the tank system. They are on the north side of a building so they only get a few hours of direct sunlight. The highest I have seen the water temp is 75 and the average temp since hatch is probably 68. I am debating moving the rest of the them over to the pond since it's running 8-10 degrees warmer than the tank system. The only issue I have is lack of confirmation that the pond fry have survived. I tried some dip net sampling yesterday and only caught one fish. He was fatter and faster than any fry I have seen thus far. I think they are just fast enough to dodge my net, but part of me worries that some bug/creature is eating them.

Sent from my SM-A146U1 using Tapatalk

[Matt24]

... wondering if 1500+ fry in close quarters wasn't causing some pathogens to spread.

... the remaining tank fry(400-500) ... growth, or lack thereof, ...They are around a month old at this point and quite a few look the same as they did at 1 week old ...

From what I have experienced, koi in their first year are more affectd by cooler water than bigger koi. Here, the first year koi almost completely stop eating ant growing around mid-October, but my adult koi keep eating for long after that. Also one time I got a spawn in April, which is early for this area. I thought this jump start would mean I would get much bigger fry later on. But they hardly grew at all over the next 5-6 weeks, which were cool. Since then I figured there is not much point to trying to rush them. I suspect that 8-10 degrees that you mentioned would make a lot of difference, though I can also see not wanting to put all the eggs in one basket. You have an interesting choice there.

[Coldspringsfarm]

From what I have experienced, koi in their first year are more affectd by cooler water than bigger koi. Here, the first year koi almost completely stop eating ant growing around mid-October, but my adult koi keep eating for long after that. Also one time I got a spawn in April, which is early for this area. I thought this jump start would mean I would get much bigger fry later on. But they hardly grew at all over the next 5-6 weeks, which were cool. Since then I figured there is not much point to trying to rush them. I suspect that 8-10 degrees that you mentioned would make a lot of difference, though I can also see not wanting to put all the eggs in one basket. You have an interesting choice there.

Thanks for sharing your personal experience. The water temp makes the most sense to me as a cause...and the overstocking couldn't have helped. So now for an update to fry movement. The "Kosui" fry all got moved to the kiddie pool. So the tank they were in got cleaned up a bit and I have started migrating and counting the remaining Shusui fry from one tank to the other. There are definitely some big jokers that have been hanging out near the bottom. The size range is extreme but the smallest ones seem to be thinning out the last week and I suspect they are ending up in the bellies of the big boys. I have moved over 60 so far. Quite a few have developed the chobo sumo on their head, so that's exciting. The other thing that gives me hope for the mud pond population is that even in this 250 gallon tank it is hard to catch the bigger fish. Pics showing size difference and black spot on heads.

Sent from my SM-A146U1 using Tapatalk

[Coldspringsfarm]

I am up to around 130 moved over. Here are pics of some of the larger ones that are starting to show some color patterns.

Sent from my SM-A146U1 using Tapatalk

[Coldspringsfarm]

Not a lot to report this week. To recap, this spawn is divided between two locations. I moved approx 1000 fry to the mud pond. I estimated 400+ still left in the tank at that time, but a week later I decided to move them over to another cleaner tank and, in the process, counted about 130 fry. I know there were more than that, but a lot of them were very small. I suspect they died or got eaten by the larger fry. Those fish seemed to be doing well. What I am noticing is the larger fry seem to be more elusive. Presumably, they are hanging near the bottom where natural food sources are located, as well as fry powder sediments. I ordered some aquamax 100 and 200 to step up the food sizes, but it has not arrived yet.

The pond has been kind of boring. Zero fish sightings in over a week. I decided to not use any nets until May 15th because I felt like I was causing muddy conditions and probably stressing out the fry. I suspect they still have ample natural food sources, but I am also throwing out fry powder twice per day. It's probably too small for most of them but adding 50% protein to the food chain can't hurt. Maybe the aquamax 100/200 will start luring them to the surface.

Sent from my SM-A146U1 using Tapatalk

[Matt24]

... a lot of them were very small. I suspect they died or got eaten by the larger fry ...

Seems like there is always some of such predation in my spawns. I just try to separate the larger ones to keep it under control.

... I am noticing is the larger fry seem to be more elusive.

As little fry grow, the seem more wary and quicker to react to perceived threats than their smaller siblings the same age. So I suspect not only are their bodies growing faster, but their brains develop faster too.

[Coldspringsfarm]

So today I talked myself into taking another swipe with the net in the mud pond. I figured if I am going to invest time down there for feeding, I need some sort of confirmation that the fish are still there. I promised myself that I was only going to do 1 or 2 netting attempts. For the first attempt I decided to try to go straight down so the net was parallel to the mud bottom, theorizing that they must be right on the bottom due to lack of sightings. My goal was to trap them and then quickly slide the net along the bottom as I pulled it out of the pond. This yielded quite a bit of mud, but as I sifted through it I found 4 fish! The two largest were maybe around an inch long and had the chobo sumo mark. The two smaller fish had the start of a dark spot on their head, but unfortunately the trauma of netting(and a mud bath) may have killed them.. I will note that all 4 of them had very fat bellies and looked healthy. So, overall, I am glad that I did it. Catching 4 fish in a 2 or 3 sqft area gives me confidence that there is a high survival rate. It also confirmed that my netting method is harmful and should be avoided. Lastly, based on the sizes, I probably won't be in a hurry to seine and cull. My 1/4" seine would prob not catch most of them at this point. Here is a pic of one of the larger ones that I caught.

Sent from my SM-A146U1 using Tapatalk

[Coldspringsfarm]

The tank Shusui fry have started coming to the surface a good bit. They are pretty shy but I managed to sneak a quick video. You can see color patterns starting to form and I am getting excited!
https://youtube.com/shorts/W3meUxdLb...vstRKRST0Urg_u

Sent from my SM-A146U1 using Tapatalk

[Matt24]

Looks like a good start. They seem healthy and thick like they are getting plenty to eat, and most have those head spots.

[Coldspringsfarm]

Today I officially started the culling process for the Shusui fry. I was supposed to have a 1/8 mesh net seine delivered today, but of course the USPS is dragging their feet.. That means the mud pond is still untouched, but I went ahead with the tank system cull. Several weeks ago I moved these guys over from one tank to another and counted around 130 fry(going from memory). Today I pulled out between 30-35 keepers and about 40 culls. I'm pretty sure I got most everything out of the tank, which means 60 fish disappeared. There were definitely quite a few that were not growing when I moved them over, so I suspect those small ones became snacks for the larger fish. The culling process was pretty easy. The largest fish also had the best patterns and body shape. There were maybe 8 or 10 small/medium sized that made the cut but they were saved mostly to see how/if they will develop. The smallest fish almost all had some sort of deformity. Crooked spines, missing gill plates, oddly shaped bellies. It appeared as though quite a few of the small ones had this odd split looking deformity on their belly. Maybe this is just a development stage and they are way behind, but either way they got culled. Here are some close ups of the keepers and a pic of the bucket of culls.
I am very pleased with the larger fish. Here are some pics and

Sent from my SM-A146U1 using Tapatalk

[Matt24]

Nice! And they'll have more room to grow now.

... quite a few of the small ones had this odd split looking deformity on their belly. Maybe this is just a development stage and they are way behind, but either way they got culled.

I have seen that before in at least a couple of spawns where plump fry get a length-wise split in the skin going down the abdomen. It seems like they would die from this apparent wound. However, though I can't recall for sure, I think some of mine have healed up from that condition.

[Coldspringsfarm]

Nice! And they'll have more room to grow now.



I have seen that before in at least a couple of spawns where plump fry get a length-wise split in the skin going down the abdomen. It seems like they would die from this apparent wound. However, though I can't recall for sure, I think some of mine have healed up from that condition.

I haven't looked at it under microscope, but I couldn't tell if it was internal or external. Surely if it came through the skin it would be guaranteed death.

As far as grow out space, yes, it should help a bit. If the mud pond shows good results, I may end up consolidating most of the keepers down there. Still inclined to diversify as much as I can, but these 250 gal tanks are gonna get small fast if they grow like I want them to.

Sent from my SM-A146U1 using Tapatalk