Barly swollen koi with injury in the area

[Carson Blocks]

I've recently moved in to a rental house that has a koi pond, and have been following the care instructions left as well as trying to get up to speed on koi care. One of the fish was looking swollen, we thought it may have been eggs, but it kept getting worse. I started trying to treat it, but today it just got much worse and she has some kind of injury in the area now. I've taken some photos and can try to get more if the light changes to something more favorable.



Pond info:
We are told the pond is around 400 gallons
It has 6-7 large koi, 4-5 fairly small koi, and 2 turtles. I believe it's probably overstocked, but did not stock it and am not in a position to de-stock it without owner approval.
The filter is an Aqua Ultraviolet Ultima II, I believe it's the 2000 model, and there is an ultraviolet light in the piping as well.
Maintenance:
A weekly filter backwash and topping up the water afterwards. I have upped this to 2x a week lately.
The owner was adding tap water which I understand is treated with chloramine here. Yesterday I added a barrel inline so I can treat the water before adding to the pond.

Water quality:
We just recently got test strips to monitor the water quality and it was
Nitrate: 0/undetectable
Nitrite: 0/undetectable
Total Hardness: Off the scale (425+), I understand this is just how our water is here.
Free Chlorine: 0/undetectable
Total Alkalinity: ~120
Carbonate: Between 80 and 120
pH: less than 6.0 (as low as the test strips show)
I am getting ammonia test strips today to make sure ammonia levels are not out of control as pH is being raised.
I am looking for a thermometer to get water temperature and can test source water and update the thread when I get this info.

What I've done:
Added the rain barrel for chloramine treatment of water changes
More frequent partial changes (~50gal at a time)
I have been adding baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) slowly over the past couple days and have got pH to between 6.5 and 7 and plan to keep upping it slowly unless otherwise instructed.
I added MICROBE-LIFT Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment last night

I am considering rigging up a plastic tote to float in the pond for a hospital tank for the sick fish, but am out of my depth here and would appreciate any guidance.

[fly4koi]

The water is seeping into the body through the injury, as first step I would treat the injury with iodine so that it cauterizes the wound and see if the situation gets better. You can also set up a QT with 0.15% salinity to help reducing the water intrusion as a start.

Your KH and pH doesn't make sense, maybe your test kit has expired.

[Carson Blocks]

Thanks for the reply. I watched a video on treating the fish with iodine and looks like I need some anesthetic as well, just trying to find that stuff now before everywhere closes for thanksgiving.

The test kit is brand new, JNW Direct Pond Test, 7-in-1 strips, expiry date 03-Sept-2025

[coolwon]

As a first I would read up on KH, top of the page KOI CALCULATIONS, right hand side.

Ditch the test strips, buy drip type test kits.

Add bi carb to raise your pH, as per the KH koi calculations to adjust the pH to your pond volume slowly.

Strip test kits are not considered accurate enough for testing pond water.

[Carson Blocks]

Thanks, I'm reading up now and will order some better test equipment right away. My replies might be a little out of sync as they have to be manually approved by an administrator apparently.

[*Ci*]

Thanks, I'm reading up now and will order some better test equipment right away. My replies might be a little out of sync as they have to be manually approved by an administrator apparently.

Sorry, I fixed that for you. Good luck with your koi!

[fly4koi]

clove oil can be found at any GMC store in the mall.

[Carson Blocks]

Ditch the test strips, buy drip type test kits.
...
Strip test kits are not considered accurate enough for testing pond water.

Thanks,the liquid test had a very different result for pH, 8.2 than the test strips which showed 7.0 from the same sample.

Sorry, I fixed that for you. Good luck with your koi!

Thank you!

clove oil can be found at any GMC store in the mall.

Thanks, we're trying to track some down today. I'm not gonna lie, I'm nervous about using clove oil and trying to sedate the fish and treat the injury, but it's better than letting it die so we're gearing up for the procedure.

CVS is open today on the holiday and sells Povidone Iodine in a 10% solution and Betadine which is apparently also 10% Povidone-Iodine and I don't see the difference. Both are 8oz liquid, would either of these be suitable for the fish or do I need something fish-specific from a koi store tomorrow?



Current water specs (liquid test)
pH: 8.2
Ammonia: 0ppm (maybe slightly darker than the 0ppm yellow on the chart, but nowhere near a greenish tinge like the next box up, 0.25ppm has)
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm (again maybe slightly darker, but none of the orange tint the second 5ppm box shows)

Tap water appears to test at pH 8.0-8.1

I've been slowly adding some salt to the pond as well, currently at 811ppm / 0.08%, with the goal of running in the 1-3ppt range and planning a ~25% water change today and maybe another round of the MICROBE-LIFT Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment

[fly4koi]

Any medical iodine is fine, just don't get on the sensitive areas like eyes, mouth, and gills. I don't think you need BSDT since there's no indication that this is parasite, I have mixed feeling about salting, because it can wipe out the algae and then it will take a long time to grow them back.

[coolwon]

The ph is up to 8.2. Your KH number of drops reading now should be up to +-6 drops for more stability.

Could this swollen area not be a tumor that's getting bigger and disfiguring the body shape with the disfiguring lump.

Could the turtles have bitten the fish to create the injury.

The tumor could be more life threatening than the injury?

Catch the fish in your round 500mm open Koi net.

With somebody else's assistance, raise the net, to just below the water surface with nets steel ring slightly above the pond surface.

This is so the fish cannot flounder about and swim or jump out. The fish will be unhappy,be calm move slowly to keep the fish more

relaxed.

Bring the net with the fish to the pond edge and take pics of the fishes general body shape, attempting to show the natural contours

of the fishes body shape, the swollen body part showing up clearly, and how large the disfigurement is.

It's a black fish, and your original pics are not very helpful with the fish deep below the surface,against the black background makes it

difficult to make out whats what with fish.

Tumors are quite common amongst pond fish.





They will swim, eat and behave quite normally showing no discomfort.

[Carson Blocks]

The ph is up to 8.2. Your KH number of drops reading now should be up to +-6 drops for more stability.

Still tracking down a liquid KH test kit, wife is out looking for one now

Could this swollen area not be a tumor that's getting bigger and disfiguring the body shape with the disfiguring lump.

Could the turtles have bitten the fish to create the injury.

I don't know for sure but the former sounds more likely than the latter as the swelling was there before the injury.

The turtles may be guilty, but I've never seen them bother with the fish. Feeding time gets a bit competitive so if one ever has a gash by their mouth I will blame the red slider. The other one is scared of his own shadow.

It's a black fish, and your original pics are not very helpful with the fish deep below the surface,against the black background makes it

difficult to make out whats what with fish.

I've got some better photos now, I'm not optimistic but you guys are the experts. She didn't fight me at all (probably not a good sign) and let me bring her right out of the water for a moment to take the photos.



The swelling appears to have gone down, but she is getting worse and leaking fish meat..

[richtoybox]

This is a wound and treating with iodine would be helpful. It appears the fish has bounced off the rocks lining the side of the pond, ripping scales off. The deepest wound first looked like it was caused by the turtle, due to its shape and depth, but that could just be from the scraping. It is not red, so there is no evidence of infection so treat with iodine and keep an eye on it. I would order, online only as far as I know, Tricide Neo, and triple antibiotic powder for fish. If infection starts, then we can guide you on the use. Do not use using manufacturers instructions as it becomes very expensive that way.

[Carson Blocks]

This is a wound and treating with iodine would be helpful. It appears the fish has bounced off the rocks lining the side of the pond, ripping scales off. The deepest wound first looked like it was caused by the turtle, due to its shape and depth, but that could just be from the scraping.

She was very badly swollen for quite a while on that side before the wound started, if that changes the diagnosis at all.

I've treated it with iodine. She has such little fight right now we skipped the whole clove oil sedation thing and just did it right in the net next to the pond, she didn't seem to mind or fuss. Put up more of a struggle avoiding the net (nice to see there is some fight left) but once netted just let us treat the wound.

The local koi shop gave the wife some Chloramine-T to treat the pond with, so just did another partial water change to get the salt back down and will do that next. I'll look for the stuff you mentioned too, expecting to have to treat this further.

[Carson Blocks]

Do not use using manufacturers instructions as it becomes very expensive that way.

Do you happen to have the updated dosing advice so I can choose to buy the 22gm or 110gm size of Tricide Neo? And for that matter what size of the triple antibiotic powder? The site I found sells it by gram quantities, but then recommends dosing by teaspoon.. 1/2 tsp / 20gal apparently.

[fly4koi]

We usually do a spray method with tricide neo, same efficacy but a lot cheaper, same regimen for a week. Alternatively you can mix tricide neo powder with the slime from the fish and rub it into the wound, and this is one and done method.

[kdh]

So it sounds like you had a bad infection that blew out. This does happen. You did not need to treat pond if this is the only problem you have with your fish. Bacterial problems can show up without showing red. So watch closely for spreading or worsening. Pristine water is very important for healing. The colder the water. The slower it is for healing process due to immune system slowing down.

[coolwon]

I would say the nasty turtle, has taken advantage of the fishes slow movements and attacked from below, up and behind.

I say this, judging by the raw flesh visible on the one open wound.

A scrape against the rocks, is not going to create a crater deep wound.

Take care of the health of your pond water and ample medication to reduce the chance of infection,and the wound deteriorating,

[kdh]

I would say the nasty turtle, has taken advantage of the fishes slow movements and attacked from below, up and behind.

I say this, judging by the raw flesh visible on the one open wound.

A scrape against the rocks, is not going to create a crater deep wound.

Take care of the health of your pond water and ample medication to reduce the chance of infection,and the wound deteriorating,

He stated it started with a bulge. Not a turtle. Then it blew out. As I stated. I have seen this before. Dont know what kind of turtle he has. But most well not attack a large koi as this is.

[richtoybox]

The 22 gram package makes one gallon of solution, the 110 gram makes 5 gallons. Following the manufacturers instructions, you immerse the fish in the solution for a given time, rinse and return it to the pond until the nest treatment. The solution needs to be strained of slime coat that is stripped by the solution, and then refrigerated for further use, and then heated to pond temperature for the next treatment. The one gallon size may be good for smaller fish, but larger koi need the 5 gallon, and finding a place in my refrigerator for 5 gallons is nor easy. Otherwise it is make up a new batch with each treatment. My method is to mix 1/4 of the 22 gram package with one quart of water and put it in a spray bottle, with the fish out of the water spray for the specified time to keep the fish wetted with the solution. The quart size container is easy to refrigerate, and the spray does not have enough volume of cold water to affect the fishes temperature, so no need to heat. Some of the others have had excellent results as noted with a mixture of the dry powder with some of the fishes slime coat and applying it directly to the wound, as a once and done treatment. Either way the remainder of the powder should be packaged airtight and frozen to prevent moisture from degrading it until the next time it is needed.

[coolwon]

He stated it started with a bulge. Not a turtle. Then it blew out. As I stated. I have seen this before. Dont know what kind of turtle he has. But most well not attack a large koi as this is.

You read a bulge? You don't read 2 turtles, or see the one turtle in the picture?

Maybe you would not notice the two injuries below the lateral line, which caused the bulge?

Bad infection that blew out? Does the open raw pink wound look like it blew something out?

I see raw red flesh,like a razor INVERTED V cuts caused probably by the bite from a turtle.

Each wound looks like a pyramid,or inverted V. The shape of a turtles razor sharp beak.

I don't see a wound caused by bacteria ,I see an open deep,to the pink meaty flesh a raw open injury.

A turtle, taking or not taking a bite out of a fish is purely supposition on the day, and what it's motive was.

Usually always hunger in the animal world.

Red eared slider turtles have a animal protein diet of fish meat, insects and aquatic creatures in their water.