First time dealing with health issues/ulcers

[anthony21078]

Since building this pond about 5 years ago, this is the first time there have been any health related issues. A few months ago I noticed a red spot on the head of one koi that gradually got worse and developed into a nasty ulcer. I believe the health issues are related to the addition of new koi about 6 months ago. Fast forward to a few weeks ago and now several koi have small ulcers. 3 days ago I quarantined the 4 koi with ulcers (heated to 74f, filtered and aerated). I began tricide neo dips for 5 minutes per fish. After 3 days there is some white growth in the ulcer that my reading suggests is part of the healing. The wound on the head is still very bad but not as deep into the body and the redness around the outside of the wound is less.

Questions.... Treatment directions state to use daily for 7 days. Are the koi supposed to be quarantined only for 7 days or until the ulcers show significant improvement which could be several weeks minimum?

I also want to treat the pond with PP in hopes of killing any bacteria that is causing this problem. Should that be done while the sick koi are quarantined or should they be in the pond during the PP treatment?

If my treatment plan is flawed please advise a different course of action.

At this time, I have not scraped and I do not have a scope.

[cindy]

The white is healing, but that one on the head is bad. Good job. Looking good ? If you can catch the fish from the pond and treat them, but it’s easier if you can just keep them in the quarantine tank and make sure that the water stays perfect

We need to figure out what the problem that’s causing it first you added fish so you either have a parasite problem or water quality problem that’s causing ulcers

If you don’t have a microscope, and you can’t scrape for parasites, I would go ahead and order BDST and fluke him and go ahead and shotgun treat your pond before we go into cold weather

If these fish have parasites and you quarantine them, and you only treat the other pond when they’re bringing the parasites into the pond, you haven’t taken care of the problem so I would go ahead and wait until you get these fish healed. Get them back into the pond and then go ahead and shotgun.

[cindy]

You’ve added more fish I’m wondering about your fish load. Are you doing regular 10% water changes and do you have a testing kit?

[anthony21078]

The white is healing, but that one on the head is bad. Good job. Looking good ? If you can catch the fish from the pond and treat them, but it’s easier if you can just keep them in the quarantine tank and make sure that the water stays perfect

We need to figure out what the problem that’s causing it first you added fish so you either have a parasite problem or water quality problem that’s causing ulcers

If you don’t have a microscope, and you can’t scrape for parasites, I would go ahead and order BDST and fluke him and go ahead and shotgun treat your pond before we go into cold weather

If these fish have parasites and you quarantine them, and you only treat the other pond when they’re bringing the parasites into the pond, you haven’t taken care of the problem so I would go ahead and wait until you get these fish healed. Get them back into the pond and then go ahead and shotgun.

Yes I have the 4 koi with ulcers in the quarantine tank. I'm concerned about the bio filtration for the quarantine tank. I basically took one of the large foam/sponge filters from the pond filter and rigged the foam pad around the quarantine tank filter inlet. For now its working. I rinse the pad 2x a day and conduct 20% water changes once a day to keep that tank healthy. Ive also been treating the pond with melafix for the past 10 days and quarantine tank for the last 3 days since the koi have been placed in there.

I initially treated the pond with BSDT several weeks ago for approximately 4 days (prior to using the melafix). I read that melafix and BSDT should not be used together?

Ive watched a few videos on scraping and it seems generally easy. Ill pick up a scope on amazon today.

So for now Ill continue to treat with tricide neo. Should I discontinue the use of melafix and use BSDT in both the quarantine and pond? Or should I use both?

[anthony21078]

I would say the fish load is heavy but the abundance of plants, filtering/filter cleaning and weekly water changes is keeping the pond within good parameters. I should be testing the water more often. I guess the extremely clear water makes me think everything is "fine" but obviously clear water is not the only indicator of healthy water.

[kdh]

water parameters? how many fish and sizes? How large/gallons in pond?

[coolwon]

It would appear you have introduced either one, of two types of bacterium which cause ulcers,lesions and mouth rot in fish.

They are the Columnaris disease caused by a bacterium Flavobacterium columnare,which causes the ulcers,lesions and mouth rot.

The 2nd bacterium is Aeromonas hydrophila,it is a bacterium that causes the same damage to body parts as the first one.

If I recall they came out in outbreaks, with new imports at different times.

All new fish can carry these problems,that is why they MUST be placed in quarantine for a month or more.

Your pond fish have lived in a safe bubble,isolated from these real bad ones.

I am sure somebody on the forum will offer you more help and recommedations on how to assist you in caring for your fish.

Cheers.

[KingstonKoi]

Melafix is a tea tree oil. While it may appear to sooth, it really doesn’t have healing properties and it coats gills making it harder for the fish’s respiration. The feedback on Koiphen over the last decade by experienced advisors has been to avoid using it. “It may make your water smell nice, but it’s not good for the fish” and “expensive snake oil“ are two of the common comments from the more respected advisors. Recommend discontinuing.

[fly4koi]

Do not use melafix, are all you fish having issue? If so, you need to treat your main pond with 3x BSDT + 2x fluke-M, you should treat it with the fish in there.

Assuming you finished the 7 day tricide neo treatment, there's really no point of keeping them in the QT, unless you plan to support with 0.5ppm Oxolinic Acid for another week.

Fish load? Pond size? water parameters?

[anthony21078]

Water test using api drop kit

Ph 7.5
Amn 0
Ni 0
Na 20
Phos 0

Pond is roughly 1000 gallons with 8, 7" goldfish, 12 koi ranging from 7 to 18". I have an oase biosmart 10000 with additional filter media in the skimmer and waterfall. About 70% of the surrounding edge of the pond has various plants.

As per your recommendations I have stopped using the melafix and started with the microbi broad spectrum today to the pond. There are four koi with ulcers of which the yellow koi posted above is by far the worst. All four of those koi are in a quarantine tank heated to 74 f, highly aerated, filtered and 20% water changes daily. I started the tricide neo dip at 5 minutes per fish and today was the 5th session.

I do not see any other ulcers on any other fish in the pond. I purchased a scope today that should arrive tomorrow and I will attempt to get some scrapes on the sick fish.

[kdh]

You can PP the pond. Do you have any other parameter readings in the past before doing all the water changes etc. Obviously your parameters now look good and help the other fish. If your fish showed no unusual behavior before the ulcers (flashing, staying on bottom,darting, etc) than its probably a bacteria problem and not a parasite problem. Many times ulcers are hard to spot as they can be on the belly only. when they come up for food check their bellies closely.

[fly4koi]

What about your KH? pH seem a bit low. I'm leaning towards parasites because you have 4 fish with issues, assuming you didn't have water quality issue, which is another possibility.
Also with 1000 gallon and 12 koi you are overstocked and you need to make sure your aeration and filtration is top notch.

[kdh]

What about your KH? pH seem a bit low. I'm leaning towards parasites because you have 4 fish with issues, assuming you didn't have water quality issue, which is another possibility.
Also with 1000 gallon and 12 koi you are overstocked and you need to make sure your aeration and filtration is top notch.

Maybe parasite.
However when I had a pond for 28 years. I had issues 4 times with bacteria ulcers. One was so bad that almost half the fish had ulcers. I treated the ulcers and all was well and did not treat for parasites as they showed so signs of parasite problems. The other 3 times fish had bacterial problems but not parasite and all was well. I have treated many times with parasite issues with other ponds for parasites and not one had ulcers. I have helped others with ulcers and did not treat for parasites and all was well. I do not see how parasites are a problem with ulcers unless the koi show signs of parasite problems to begin with and that well lead to bacterial problems if untreated for too long. Or depending on the severity of the parasite that has attacked the koi. An ulcer can create a window for secondary conditions such as parasites because it is an open wound making it easier for some parasites to feed and the koi is somewhat stressed due to the ulcer. I have not seen it posted on KP a parasite issue started with ulcers or vise versa. Just my experience. His koi have been infected for several weeks. Why are they not flashing or showing any other signs of parasite problems? Would not the parasite get a foothold as the koi is stressed from the ulcers and take off reproducing? Postings of problems almost always one or the other on kp?

I am not saying it does not happen as there are many cases supporting it. But believe the two combined is over exaggerated. Its just not necessary in many cases to bomb a pond for parasite issues because a koi has an ulcer. Bacterial issues arise all the time with koi on there own.

[anthony21078]

KH test arriving later. Yes, I know my pond is overstocked and I certainly keep up on filter cleaning and water changes.

I scraped 3 of the 4 koi in the quarantine and this is what I found. Flukes? What are the two circles?

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/FJLSgiBpEXk

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/7A-AO0E61-8

https://www.youtube.com/shorts/PpxZ7jQX_2A

[kdh]

Here is a great vid of parasites. Looks like you have skin flukes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAPVLd4w4xE

[anthony21078]

So what would be the correct order to treat the pond for flukes at this point? I still have 2 more treatments of tricide neo for the quarantined koi. Do I wait until the last tricide neo treatment is done, place the quarentined koi back into the pond and then treat with prazipro? Or should I treat both the pond and quarantine tank at the same time?

[anthony21078]

This is the largest koi and he appears to be getting worse after the 6 day of tricide neo dips

[kdh]

That makes sense.

[anthony21078]

what about your kh?

kh 120
gh 180

[kdh]

Take a scraping of the koi next to the large area of infection on the side by tail.. Also a pic of the gills.. When your koi come up to eat in the pond. Check their bellies as ulcers sometimes are hidden there. When your koi come up to eat.