Microbe-Lift Broad Spectrum Frequency of Use

[mltrpca]

About 1 month ago, I had two koi who stopped eating and were breathing heavily. I treated the pond with Aqua Prazi and 3 days of Microbe-Lift Broad Spectrum. Now 1 month later I have a different fish with similar symptoms. I'd like to retreat the pond with the same products but don't know if this is advisable given their recent use and concerns for the fish developing a tolerance to the chemicals. On the other hand, I don't have a lot of options.

Any feedback is most appreciated.

[Orlando]

Could you please post the water parameters of your pond as soon as you are able so those that are in the position to offer assistance can do so promptly, thanks in advance.

[mltrpca]

Hi Orlando. Thanks for responding so quickly.

Measurements taken in the morning (8 am). It has been VERY hot here in CA (100 degrees plus). That said, it was in the nineties when similar behavior was observed last month.

PH-7.5
Ammonia-.25-.50
Nitrite-0
Phosphate-.25-.50
Nitrate-5.0
KH-15 drops

I'm convinced, although I have no evidence to support it, that the city is putting something in our water at this time of year that has a detrimental effect on the koi. Illness, when it does occur, happens around this time of year.

[fly4koi]

Sometimes fluke needs 2 continuous dose to get rid off, can you scope the fish to confirm?

[aquaholic]

Some possibilities are: 1) The treatments worked but not on parasite eggs which have since hatched & spread. 2) The treatments didn't quite work due to insufficient strength or parasites sheltering deep in slime or biofilm coats. 3) The treatments didnt work because it's not flukes but costia, white spot, anchor worm or something not considered. 4) The treatments worked but this is something new that has turned up with apparently similar symptoms.

Hopefully you have a microscope? Although it's still easy to miss some of the trickier problems even with a microscope until you get good experience.

Of course you have plenty of options. Don't get discouraged.

What I would do (assuming I don't have a microscope) is treat the symtomatic fish in a separate tank/tub with the same medications since you already have them. Or if your not confident these treatments worked well the first time then a short term strong salt bath. I've used large cooler box (esky), inflatable vinyl boat, box trailer lined with tarpaulin, kids plastic sand box, etc as temporary holding and treatment tanks. Only needs to be deep enough to cover whole fish.

Make sure you aerate when using formalin.

[mltrpca]

Thanks for your reply. I don't have a microscope but moving in that direction once better educated.

When the fish were ill in August, I first treated with Aqua Prazi on 08/11. When a second fish became ill and I saw no improvement in the first fish I considered the possibility of parasites and moved on to pond treatments with the Broad Spectrum product with treatments on 08/14, 08/15, 08/16. Both fish were eating again by 08/16. I don't know if it took that long for the Aqua Prazi to work or if it was the Broad Spectrum that was effective. There's the challenge of uncertainty when using multiple treatments.

[aquaholic]

Without a microscope, you are guessing and even koi retailers, professional vets and online hobbyist discussion posters would be guessing without one. Even if the guess were correct and the medication product was suitable, we would still be guessing if the treatment was successful afterwards too. Anyway, I think you know the importance of a microscope.

Was your first treatment regime successful? Perhaps even though other fish are now sick.

The suggestion of a short term bath is to allow you to dose at very high medication rates where you can closely observe fish stress and easily dilute the dosage or remove fish if required. (we are still guessing but reducing the guesswork). Salt is excellent and changing medications helps to reduce parasite's resistance to treatments. The other advantage is that it's very quick and you don't need much poison (medication) which can be expensive.

Or you could try your double treatment regime in the pond once again. It mostly worked before.

[fly4koi]

So my problem with your regimen is that when you do water change after the BSDT you might lower the concentration of the prazi which made it less effective.

[mltrpca]

The first treatment was successful and those fish remain healthy.

I have relied on others to do the heavy lifting when it comes to sick fish but that pendulum is swinging my way now. When I initially researched the cost to set up and continuously run a quarantine system I found it to be cost prohibitive. So, for the time being, treatments will be limited to the pond.

What I'm doing right now is waiting. In the past, that has been a very poor strategy, but circumstances are somewhat different now. The ill fish is showing interest in eating although not eating anywhere near normal. Temperatures are declining and will be dropping from 100+ over multiple days to mid-nineties today and into the eighties tomorrow. I'm completely speculating here but thinking that dissolved oxygen may be a factor here. This is the first year the pond has been without oxygenating plants (lilies only this year). With the extreme temperatures comes less DO and fish immune systems are compromised. Perhaps this illness was brought on as a result. I want to give the pond a few days to adjust to the reduced temperatures and hopefully an improvement in DO and fish immunity. If my patient shows no improvement, then I'll resume treating the pond. I don't have a DO test meter but researching them now.

I've tried using an aerator to increase DO and everyone runs for shelter. Sigh. Even after shutting it off and removing it they remain hunkered down for hours so I'm not sure it's worth running and stressing them out.

[mltrpca]

Unfortunately, I didn't think ahead and plan for using BSDT. If I repeat treating the pond again, do you suggest using 2 days of BSDT then on the third day of treating with BSDT adding the Aqua Prazi? I think I've read on Koiphen about that being done but Microbe-Llift has stated not to mix chemicals.

[coolwon]

Hi Orlando. Thanks for responding so quickly.

Measurements taken in the morning (8 am). It has been VERY hot here in CA (100 degrees plus). That said, it was in the nineties when similar behavior was observed last month.

PH-7.5
Ammonia-.25-.50
Nitrite-0
Phosphate-.25-.50
Nitrate-5.0
KH-15 drops

I'm convinced, although I have no evidence to support it, that the city is putting something in our water at this time of year that has a detrimental effect on the koi. Illness, when it does occur, happens around this time of year.

How do all the humans around you, look on the METRO water supply?

I have heard Chloromine does not boil or dissipate easily,it is considered harmful to fish.

Chlorine, as it leaves the tap is not really harmful for immediate consumption.

Approach the water board supplier,they will supply the disinfectants they treat your water pipe runs with.

Do you have an air pump and suitable air stones, bringing up that stale water,that should be be constantly rejuvenated by interfacing with the

air above.

Oxygen is soluble in water,and only makes up a very low 20 % of the air around us.

A healthy life line for your fish.

They cannot function without an adequate amount to keep them chasing food and looking for things to do.

They have to go slow without oxygen,

The bigger fish suffer a lot more than the smaller fish with a low oxygen count all their life.

[fly4koi]

Unfortunately, I didn't think ahead and plan for using BSDT. If I repeat treating the pond again, do you suggest using 2 days of BSDT then on the third day of treating with BSDT adding the Aqua Prazi? I think I've read on Koiphen about that being done but Microbe-Llift has stated not to mix chemicals.

I would actually just treat with prazi but still do 2 dose, it's hard to see bugs that are treatable by BSDT surviving 3 doses. If you have access to fluke-M I would recommend that one instead.