Koi flash without obvious reason, why?

[coolwon]

Thank you coolwon and fly4koi for your replies.

I have fed my koi with cat food for at least 2 years now and the flashing started in the beginning of this summer, so I cannot say that it is the cat food. By the way, I am sure that the cat food is way better than koi food, due to the much bigger market and the higher awareness of quality. Furthermore, the cat food contains all the nutrients koi need except the coloring enhancing spirulina powder, so I still use 40-50% koi food after all.

fly4koi: Proform-C is indeed a very good treatment against parasites, but since PP-treatment is more convenient I have not used this method for very long time. By the way PP is the only method I use against parasites since 2 years back, and I have not encountered any microscopic parasites that PP cannot kill but Proform-C can.

coolwon: Yes it is rumored that PP will damage the gills, but I doubt, because fish is really good at regenerate tissues. Late Roddy Conrad used to apply PP-treatment regularly.

Rumored.

How would a fish breath, while it's regenerating its burnt gills?

[*Ci*]

Years ago I sent Roddy a pm about gill damage due to pp usage. Here was his reply:


"Hi, Dr. Conrad,

Sorry to bother you after so long. As usual there is an ongoing debate about regular PP usage (on a different forum). As a follower of your low dose protocols and having seen the benefits of no parasites or bacterial issues in my fish for the past 7 years, I won't be dissuaded from continuing...
But one argument that keeps popping up is long term gill damage on fish by continued use of PP.

So my question is: Do you see any evidence, particularly under microscope exam, of gill damage, or nodes on the tissue on your fish? (I know you've been PP'ing them for many years ... 17 maybe? longer than anyone else in the US koi hobby?). Do you have any opinion on this issue as a possible drawback to regular low dose PP in the pond?

Thanks, as always, for your help and insights,
Cheers,"

Originally posted by Roddy Conrad
Not only do i not see long term gill damage, but there are also several published papers describing the rapid repair of the minor effect on the gills of doses similiar to mine but for 24 hour and 48 hour duration of the active pp level.”

[coolwon]

Years ago I sent Roddy a pm about gill damage due to pp usage. Here was his reply:


"Hi, Dr. Conrad,

Sorry to bother you after so long. As usual there is an ongoing debate about regular PP usage (on a different forum). As a follower of your low dose protocols and having seen the benefits of no parasites or bacterial issues in my fish for the past 7 years, I won't be dissuaded from continuing...
But one argument that keeps popping up is long term gill damage on fish by continued use of PP.

So my question is: Do you see any evidence, particularly under microscope exam, of gill damage, or nodes on the tissue on your fish? (I know you've been PP'ing them for many years ... 17 maybe? longer than anyone else in the US koi hobby?). Do you have any opinion on this issue as a possible drawback to regular low dose PP in the pond?

Thanks, as always, for your help and insights,
Cheers,"

Originally posted by Roddy Conrad
Not only do i not see long term gill damage, but there are also several published papers describing the rapid repair of the minor effect on the gills of doses similiar to mine but for 24 hour and 48 hour duration of the active pp level.”

How many grams per thousand liters, does Roddy Conrad advocate for his low dose PP treatments?

[SimonW]

How many grams per thousand liters, does Roddy Conrad advocate for his low dose PP treatments?

If I remember right he used to start with 2 ppm and then re-dose several times when the earlier dosages have faded. But latest he just added 4 ppm once.

I am only following his earlier protocol regarding concentration, not the whole protocol. I simply treat once every 7-9 days, and for every treatment I keep the purple-pink color for 2-4 hours.

[kdh]

Rumored.

How would a fish breath, while it's regenerating its burnt gills?

added oxygen helps. The fish would die if to much of the gills are shot. It can still breath with damage. Just like a person.

[kdh]

How many grams per thousand liters, does Roddy Conrad advocate for his low dose PP treatments?

https://www.jackmcneary.com/html/potassium_permanganate_.htm

Never start with 4ppm unless you are knowledgable about the product and know your organic load. Types of koi and condition they are in. Close to exact gallons etc.

[fly4koi]

per ChatGPT:

Potassium permanganate can be effective against several types of protozoan parasites, but its effectiveness can vary depending on the species and life stage of the protozoa. Here are some protozoan parasites that might be less effectively treated by potassium permanganate:

1. **Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (Ich or White Spot Disease)**: While potassium permanganate can be used to treat Ich, it is often not the most effective treatment, especially against the encysted tomont stage of the parasite. Ich is often more effectively treated with medications like formalin, malachite green, or copper-based treatments.

2. **Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich)**: This marine parasite can also be resistant to potassium permanganate. Treatments like copper or hyposalinity are usually more effective for marine ich.

3. **Hexamita spp.**: This internal protozoan parasite, which causes hole-in-the-head disease in fish, is not effectively treated by potassium permanganate because it primarily resides within the fish's body. Metronidazole is commonly used to treat Hexamita infections.

4. **Costia (Ichthyobodo necator)**: Potassium permanganate can be effective against Costia, but higher concentrations and careful monitoring are required. Costia can sometimes be resistant, and alternative treatments like formalin may be preferred.

5. **Trichodina spp.**: This ciliated protozoan can sometimes be resistant to potassium permanganate. It may require higher dosages or alternative treatments like formalin or copper sulfate for effective control.

For any specific protozoan infection, it is essential to correctly diagnose the parasite and consult with an aquatic veterinarian or fish health specialist to determine the most appropriate treatment plan.

[fly4koi]

says pp ineffective against fluke, first hand knowledge here:
https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...67#post2822067

[SimonW]

per ChatGPT:

Potassium permanganate can be effective against several types of protozoan parasites, but its effectiveness can vary depending on the species and life stage of the protozoa. Here are some protozoan parasites that might be less effectively treated by potassium permanganate:

1. **Ichthyophthirius multifiliis (Ich or White Spot Disease)**: While potassium permanganate can be used to treat Ich, it is often not the most effective treatment, especially against the encysted tomont stage of the parasite. Ich is often more effectively treated with medications like formalin, malachite green, or copper-based treatments.

2. **Cryptocaryon irritans (Marine Ich)**: This marine parasite can also be resistant to potassium permanganate. Treatments like copper or hyposalinity are usually more effective for marine ich.

3. **Hexamita spp.**: This internal protozoan parasite, which causes hole-in-the-head disease in fish, is not effectively treated by potassium permanganate because it primarily resides within the fish's body. Metronidazole is commonly used to treat Hexamita infections.

4. **Costia (Ichthyobodo necator)**: Potassium permanganate can be effective against Costia, but higher concentrations and careful monitoring are required. Costia can sometimes be resistant, and alternative treatments like formalin may be preferred.

5. **Trichodina spp.**: This ciliated protozoan can sometimes be resistant to potassium permanganate. It may require higher dosages or alternative treatments like formalin or copper sulfate for effective control.

For any specific protozoan infection, it is essential to correctly diagnose the parasite and consult with an aquatic veterinarian or fish health specialist to determine the most appropriate treatment plan.

Thanks! Though I would say that this robot doesn't know what it is talking about :-) Nothing can develop resistance against PP. To develop resistance against PP is to develop resistance against oxidation which is a general type of chemical reactions, not any specific one with alternative pathways.

What I mean is that either PP can kill, or not.

I am no longer sure if PP kill flukes effectively. Since I started using PP I have never found any fluke on my fish, but I may be wrong. It is actually possible that flukes keep my fish flashing. I will treat them with F-MG now.

[fly4koi]

You need Fluke-M or Prazi though, F-MG doesn't kill fluke. Yes, PP will kill parasites, but the risk is the concentration might also kill the fish.

[SimonW]

You need Fluke-M or Prazi though, F-MG doesn't kill fluke. Yes, PP will kill parasites, but the risk is the concentration might also kill the fish.

Thanks. Actually that is exactly why I insist on PP: To avoid expensive and tedious medicines like Fluke-M or Prazi against which the bugs CAN develop resistance.

[fly4koi]

Thanks. Actually that is exactly why I insist on PP: To avoid expensive and tedious medicines like Fluke-M or Prazi against which the bugs CAN develop resistance.

From the sticky thread at the top:

Treatments are indicated below. Praziquantel is very effective but the water must be in the mid-seventies to improve the medication's abilities. Some say that potassium permanganate will work. I believe it is more correct to say that it may temporarily knock them back but they will recover. Salt has little effect. Kusuri Fluke-M is easily the most effective and yet the most benign of all fluke treatments.

[SimonW]

Update:

Yesterday I did a thorough scraping on the individual koi that had been flashing most. It was also the only one with some redness. But NO parasites could be found under the microscope. Its gill looked great too.

The last treatment was 9 days ago, and water temperature has been 19-21 centigrade. If PP had not worked there should be significant amount of parasites now. Therefore I cannot draw any other conclusion than that the repeated PP-treatment has killed off the microscopic parasites.

[coolwon]

Update:

Yesterday I did a thorough scraping on the individual koi that had been flashing most. It was also the only one with some redness. But NO parasites could be found under the microscope. Its gill looked great too.

The last treatment was 9 days ago, and water temperature has been 19-21 centigrade.



Just one question,why on earth would that be....If PP had not worked there should be a significant amount of parasites now.





Therefore I cannot draw any other conclusion than that the repeated PP-treatment has killed off the microscopic parasites.

.

[SimonW]

.

What I mean is that if my koi's flashing is due to parasite infection and PP could not kill them, then the parasite would multiply to a large amount within 7-9 days.

[fly4koi]

What about suspending your PP regiment and see how it goes? Parasite life cycle duration depends on water temperature as well.

[SimonW]

What about suspending your PP regiment and see how it goes? Parasite life cycle duration depends on water temperature as well.

This week I did not do PP-treatment. I have already done PP trice, with 8-9 days' interval. Now I will wait until something new comes up. I will update this thread then!

[KingstonKoi]

OK, two months ago you moved your fish outdoors. This sounds like a procedure you have done for several years without issues. And they didn’t settle down after the first week of flashing when the change in surroundings might’ve caused them to flash. Which leads to a conclusion that it might be parasites. And since you didn’t find any, but there are no symptoms than flashing, one conclusion is flukes. The PP might have kept them knocked down, but it’s not an effective treatment to knock them out completely.

The two treatments for flukes that are known to be effective are praziquantel and Fluke-M. Praziquantel is thought to build resistance, so it often takes multiple treatments to be effective. That’s what I found five years ago when I chased skin flukes (diagnosed via a scrape and scope) for three months. I just couldn’t knock them out. Learned about Fluke-M. One treatment was all it took. My Koi had skin flukes which bear live larvae. So technically one treatment should’ve been adequate. But after three months of watching the fish suffer, I did a second treatment five days later. It did take another three full weeks for the fish to stop flashing. That’s because the flukes bury themselves in the skin and cause an open wound. Just like humans, it takes time for that to heal and it itches while it heals.

Since then, I’ve had the fish flash about once a year. I always wait to see if it continues for more than a couple of days. If it’s multiple fish (or if I’ve added new koi) and it continues, I assume it’s flukes. Best practice, of course is to pull a fish, scrape and scope. But that is traumatic and causes stress. And it takes a couple of months for Koi to recover from stress as their cortisol levels do not drop quickly. Since my pond is small enough that I can treat the entire pond relatively inexpensively, I always treat the entire pond. Just be sure to read the instructions and turn off any equipment as needed. If it’s only one koi, I continue to watch. It may be that that Koi scraped itself on something and just needs time to heal.

If your fish are still flashing and you cannot see any other type of parasite, I would get a hold of Fluke-M and just use that. Or you can do a “shotgun treatment” of FM-G for three days with a 25 to 30% water change before each treatment. And use Fluke-M with the third FM-G treatment. Then wait 5 to 7 days without a water change and use Fluke-M again. After that, be sure to wait a couple of weeks to give the fish time to heal any wounds from the flukes, as microscopic as they may be.

[SimonW]

Update:

Still flashing, otherwise active, eating well, no sign of any other problem except some redness on one side of a koi, which I guess is due to scraping against a stone.