Suggestions for bettering my filtration without a ground up rebuild

[PM-Performance]

I have 2 DIY ponds, one of which has problems and the other does not. I am pretty sure I know why, but I am unsure of which I want to do to remediate.

So the pond I am having problems with is my bigger one that is dedicated to Koi. I "thought" I was doing it right by making an aquascape style pond with a skimmer, biofalls and fully rocked out inside. I am now finding this was probably not my best choice as my pretty bare liner smaller pond with a submerged pump and pressure filter is absolute ZERO maintenance and thriving, whereas my koi pond constantly requires effort. (Granted the fish are MUCH bigger, but the load is probably equally as large by size between them)

The bigger pond has its days where its pretty nice and clear, but most of the time I only get 1-2ft of visibility. Its just dark and alway seems to have floating particles.
I throw a DIY fines setup in the pond for a couple days and clear it up a bit, and I will vac it and its nice for a bit and goes back eventually. I recently switched to Matala filters in the biofalls and little to no changes other than easier cleanout.

Here are the specs to the best of my memory:
Approx 2500-3000 gallons with the rock and shelves taking up space.
4300 or so gph submersible pump inside my skimmer
Savio Compact skimmer with the 8" weir installed and 25w UV installed in it
Atlantic BF2600 biofalls with Matala mats and bioballs

Other than removing my rock or a complete ground up redesign, what are some budget/landscape friendly things I can do to help my situation out? I do not have a pump house and this is all open landscaping that whatever added I would want to hide in some way shape or form.

[aquaholic]

Not sure if this is a practical suggestion but I would put your KOI info the bare bottom easy to clean pond for at least 6 months. That will let you know if pond re-design is worth the effort - cost.

[Grumpy]

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[Grumpy]

Other than removing my rock

Like you said, you know the primary reason for problems in the rocked pond. Your discussion of health of the pond is regarding visibility, and didn't mention water quality test results. I agree a test would be move the fish to the bare bottom pond, then clean out the rock and muck on the floor of the dedicated koi pond. It may be alot of work, but there really isn't any magic bullet that I know that will help you at this point. You may be able to only add minimal improvements to your filter system once the liner is cleaned off.

If you don't already have, I recommend you begin testing with a good water quality test kit (like API POND MASTER TEST KIT plus a API GH & KH TEST KIT) to better understand what conditions you have now.

[aquaholic]

I'm a lazy fish keeper.
If you move the KOI to the bare pond and the water clarity - pond maintenance there becomes too much as well then I wouldnt do anything to the rocky pond as its always going to be an effort.

Or perhaps reduce your KOI stocking rate significantly.

If the bare pond is remains easy to maintain after 6 months of KOI then thats your answer too.

[PM-Performance]

So to answer your questions on parameters, the parameters are fine. I do not test my water regularly to be honest because everytime I do, they remain the same so that says something I guess about the water quality.
I cannot move the fish to the other non rocked pond as the pond is for goldfish and much smaller.

I do not think the rock is causing me health issues really (other than them bumping into the rocks when spawning), and the idea of a rocked pond appeals to me. Its just that the rock turned dark and makes the water look darker. There is always a good bit of sediment that the fish kick up because they are active, so that does not help for my viewing pleasure either.
I guess in the grand scheme of things, the water clarity is not all that bad compared to alot I see when people complain about their ponds. Its just that I wanted better.

I recently changed out the OEM filters from my waterfall to matala. I am even considering doubling the filter mats in that thing as the waterfall was rated at 4000g. I am assuming that is without fish, so I do not think I have any chance in the world of this falls filter being enough. I recently put filters back in my Savio Compact skimmer as well, and just ordered Matala replacements for those as well as I do think those help to keep my main filtrationa smidge cleaner.
I considered a bog filter as some preach how their lives have changed from them, but recently I have been hearing of them being sludge chambers and stinking which kept me from digging another hole.

Maybe I just need to face the reality that since I am not pulling water off the bottom of the pond and my filtration is not enough for big koi, I just need to clean the chambers out more and vac more? I really am hesitant to drain it and power wash it, but again the reality of it is that I may just have to do it.

[PM-Performance]

So fast forward a few days, my water is nice and crispy again.
It’s still dark at the bottom, but the clarity is pretty great.
I don’t get it…..

[coolwon]

Every inch of the pond wall surfaces are covered with the biological creatures that reduce the ammonia discarded by the fish in their daily life.

These creatures live on the harmful ammonia which is converted to nitrite and the less harmful nitrate.

Rather suck up the mulm, dirt, leaves, etc., with some form of a vacuum system, than do a cleanup with your high pressure washer on the

sensitive occupants living in the algae with worms and other life forms.

My fish nibble and graze the life forms and algae in-between the their regular pellet diet.

Your respectable test figures are due to the bugs keeping those figures down, safe from killing the fish.

Power washing the pond surfaces is therefore detrimental to the bacteria and life forms that inhabit the algae that consume the ammonia, etc.,

as said before.

[PM-Performance]

So just an update, doing some cleaning a few weeks ago I did some power washing on a top level of rocks and then my UV went out later and then changed foods and water clarity has been the worst it’s ever been.
Replaced the UV and threw an extra pump in just to stir up the silt to get caught in the skimmer and it’s a little better, but still kind of poor.

I just purchased an Oase biotec 24000 Screenmatic, eco premium 4000 and their 55w uv to try and get back to some level of clarity in this pond and boost my mech and bio filtering.
I may expand the pond as well soon as my fish load is just too large

[aquaholic]

I may have mentioned before but the simplest method of improving your water quality is to reduce stocking rate. Replace fish with smaller and less fish especially as this was working well for many years before.

If your like me, this isn't really an option so my next advice is to enlarge your pond with the view that another expansion years later is probable. Perhaps linking your ponds together or going up with raised walls.

[PM-Performance]

Thank you, however this pond was not great for many years.
If anything, it’s finally matured.
I never planned on this many fish and my filtration is not even remotely close to up to snuff

I just spent a lot of money on new filtration and actually planning and expansion now as well

[aquaholic]

Yes...whatever you plan, I would double it (now) in an attempt to future proof. Now is the best time.

I'm on my third fish room. Each one getting bigger than the last which is currently 21m x 9m x 3m. All three being used.

[PM-Performance]

Yes, I am all but doubling it now.
Just waiting on my new filtration to arrive so I can makeshift install awhile and then rip out my waterfall and expand over on that side and still have filtration during the process

[sandthemall]

Unfortunately these problems will never go away…if you’re struggling now, as your fish grow, you’ll experience bigger maintenance responsibilities. ‘Natural’ ponds with rock bottoms commonly have water quality consistency issues. Koi love consistent water parameters. Do not be afraid of bottom drains and rockless liners. I put my koi in a quarantine tank for 2 weeks to change my 1000 gallon rock bottom pond to a 3,700 gallon 5’d liner with a single 4” bottom drain and skimmer and 13 years later it has never needed any cleaning…just weekly water change and filter flush. My fish are 14 years old and are 24” long.

[PM-Performance]

To be clear, I do not have water quality issues, I have water clarity issues.
All my measurements are on point from what I can tell from my API pond test kit
I am vigilant though with back flushing my filtration every other week.
Speaking with Atlantic/Oase now, they advised me their bio falls were never meant to be sole filtration, so lessons have been learned.
I have all new gear coming as well as doing an expansion

[aquaholic]

If you have water clarity (turbidity) issues, you might want to floculate the fine particles together so these larger particles can drop out of the water column and more easily removed by your mechanical filter.

What the particules are made of will dictate what floculating agent is best

* Clay - use gypsum.
* Algae/green water - use a UV filter
Water treatment plants often use one of these.
* FeSO4 (iron(II) sulfate)
* Al2(SO4)3 (aluminium sulfate) - alum
* FeCl3 (iron(III) chloride)

Some trials in buckets or barrels may be in order including a control without any flocculant. The particles may simply settle out without water circulation.

The biggest issue with adding floculants is that they can be overdosed (toxic) and may need to be continually added. And your fish may enjoy the privacy of cloudy water.

[PM-Performance]

Thank you for the suggestions.
I am learning new things by the day! Some from the school of hard knocks.

My ammonia was a smidge on the higher side today, although the clarity being great at the moment. Go figure.
Once Oase gets my new filter out, I’ll be jamming! I am working on an expansion now as well as I really think more space for my koi load, as well as much better filtration is going to be key.

[sandthemall]

Exactly, clarity of water and ammonia levels aren't really linked. One of the benefits of green water is that the small ammonia spikes that occur after feeding are virtually eliminated. Either way, even a little ammonia for an extended period is not good.

What is your pond gallonage? This is a very important number to know. It will help you with filter selection, pump selection, filter turnover rate, dosing of medication, fish stocking density and feeding. I'm sure I missing a few more benefits. In the beginning of the hobby I was guessing using rough math and I was surprised to learn how little water the koi were living in. The best way is to use an inexpensive water meter the next time you do a full cleanout. I once had a neighbor who borrowed my water meter to refill his 2500 gallon pond. It turned out he really had only 900 gallons after filling. There were 11 koi in there! It was just a matter of time until he lost all of them.

Suggestions for bettering my filtration without a ground up rebuild?
The key to this hobby is keeping good water. And an equally important factor (besides filter/pond design/fish husbandry) in keeping stable water parameters is fish density. Most of us cannot allot 1000 gallons per fish. My guess is that 'most' people on this forum (just by guessing from photos) average about 300-400 gallons per fish. I imagine that that is fine if our filter turnover is robust. If not, then we can double-down on filtration (which you are doing) or reduce fish load. If you can improve your filtration and reduce fish density...then you will have bettered your filtration twofold.

Probably the best thing you can do is get a bottom drain, get rid of the rocks and invest in filters that are recognized/established for koi husbandry. The brands that you have mentioned are primarily targeting garden ponds...and though they mention fish/koi...well I've learned that they're really not ready for prime time. You need stuff that's plumbed for 2" PVC pipe throughout. I know this is not easy to hear. But I've been there and done that and it wasn't easy for me to hear...it took me two years to realize how easy life is with a bottom drain. And not just a little bit easier...I mean exponentially easier and faster and cleaner. And you will see it in the way your fish swim...their skin and their growth rate. Trust me on this: You will not miss the rocks. I thought I would. Nope.

[PM-Performance]

Thank you for the insight, However a bottom drain requires a ground up rebuild. I am not willing to go that route at this point. I am teeter tottering on getting rid of the rocks, but I want to avoid this at all costs as cleaning a pond with no rocks is **** near impossible. I have a slippery liner pond with no shelves already.
My issues are due to lack of filtration. When I was first getting started I did not understand how the filters were rated for no fish, nor did I know I would end up with the amount of fish I have now.

Going by a calculator, my pond should have been like 4500 gallons. With rocks and shelves, I always guesstimated at 2500-3k maybe. Filling maybe a foot of water ends up being 600 gallons, so my guesstimates msy not be far off.
I have never drained my pond. I do have a flow meter as of this week as well as a salt meter so I will be measuring with salt at some point this week.

I plan on keeping my Skimmer/falls/uv combo, but I am adding a Biotec Screenmatic 24000, eco premium 4500 and 55w uv to my existing filtration setup in hopes it is complete overkill.
I am adding volume as stares because I am well aware I am overstocked and under filtered. I will still be overstocked I am sure, but I am trying to remediate what I can.

[danzcool]

There are retrofit bottom drains where the pipe stays above the liner, so that would not require a total rebuild, the other option is to do a submersible at the lowest level (same location you would put a retrofit bottom drain. but as sandthemall said removing the rock on the bottom and pull water from the lowest point. I'd say to then pump it into probably a pressurized bead filter would be the least intrusive option, but certainly not cheap.