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    Thread: Changing food due to pricing

    1. #21
      Enrgizerbunny is offline Senior Member
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      I've been feeding blackwater creek. I bought feed last year and I'm still feeding that. I keep the big bag sealed up and periodically fill an old API pond food bucket. They certainly aren't eating as much this year as they have in years past when the water warmed up. I've wondered if the age is affecting the taste. Normally they will eat every floating piece eventually, but lately I've had plenty of leftovers on top.

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    2. #22
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      Human food expiration dates are often based on how a product tastes. Still safe to eat but flavors are affected and mfgs want to maintain a products flavor standards. Who knows maybe fish food tastiness changes over time. We need dedicated volunteers to taste test koi food and publish recommendations.
      Last edited by BWG; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:23 AM.

    3. #23
      kevins2ooo is offline Senior Member
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      I feed mine Drs. Foster and Smith Staple Diet...haven't had any problems. Did try Nijikawa for a couple of years but decided to cut costs in koi food.

      So cat food is also great?

    4. #24
      fly4koi is offline Senior Member
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      So I did some research into the subject...

      Corn gluten meal is a byproduct from the processing for corn starch, it is used as a cheaper protein source than fish meal, and carp also digest animal-based protein better than plant-based protein. As far as carbohydrate goes, wheat is most easily digestible, thought fish makes carb from protein conversion. Ground corn is not really used in the Japanese fisheries, but again this is farming study so the goal is the most efficient feed, in terms of meat production conversion and time of growth, I did find one study citing corn will increase the weight in terms of fat but doesn't help the meat yield, my logic would assuming ground corner is cheaper than corn gluten meal and if the fishermen can get away with ground corn they would have done it. Whole corn can block the digestive tract and kill the fish.

    5. #25
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      Food will have a percentage of carbohydrate for energy and properly processed corn is in line with other sources of carbohydrates used in fish food. Other corn byproducts such as corn gluten are used as a protein source. Often when this issue is brought up corn is looked at incorrectly as a single issue. Common for food mills to source locally available sources and for the US corn is low cost and available. Outside of the US the ingredients vary for their region and are selected by cost and availability for the target price point. Just like in the US. What matters most is the mfgs ability to blend type and percentages of each ingredient to match the animals needs profile. Not everyone wants to feed their fish food costing more than they eat.
      Last edited by BWG; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:57 PM.

    6. #26
      fly4koi is offline Senior Member
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      While corn is pretty cheap in the US, compare to wheat it is still cheaper everywhere because of global trades, ground corn is just milling so that doesn't really add much to the cost if it's a great replacement ingredient.
      Wheat actually has more protein (12%?) than rice or corn, so I can kind of see using that in the feed, I also found beta-amylase(?) is not something fish can process and corn has lots of it.
      The Mazuri with corn had soybean meal ahead of ground corn and then corn gluten meal, so it's curious why both ground corn and corn gluten meal are both used.
      I've seen mentioning of cooked and extruded corn flakes used for feed, though I'm not sure if "ground corn" is "properly processed" enough.

      Mazuri: Dehulled Soybean Meal, Ground Corn, Fish Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Middlings, Wheat Germ, Fish Oil, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal
      Hikari Staple: Wheat flour, soybean meal, fish meal, rice bran, corn gluten meal, brewers dried yeast, fish oil, garlic, dried seaweed meal, krill meal

      https://www.indexmundi.com/commodities/

    7. #27
      BWG's Avatar
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      I wonder about some of the smaller producers ability to properly process any type of grain. Pellet mills are inexpensive and cold pelletizing fast and cheap. Proper equipment to cook, extrude and pelletize more cost and slower. Personally I'd trust Purina, Ziegler and a few others but wonder how many others are just slapping together a product without adequate QC and testing. An ingredient list very important but only part of the story.

    8. #28
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      If anything, I'd trust the Japanese to know what to feed koi. Both formula from Ziegler (American company) do not contain ground corn though, and they actually align pretty well with other brands:

      Ziegler: Wheat, Fish Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Dehulled Soybean Meal, Hydrolyzed Poultry Feather Meal, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal, Soy Lecithin, Grain Distillers Dried Yeast
      Hikari: Wheat flour, soybean meal, fish meal, rice bran, corn gluten meal, brewers dried yeast, fish oil, garlic, dried seaweed meal, krill meal
      Blackwater: Fish Meal, Rice Bran, Wheat Flour, Alfalfa Meal, Poultry By-Products Meal, Wheat Middlings, Dried Kelp, Ground Wheat

      Knowing the ingredient helps to establish baseline when selecting alternative food source like cat food and such.
      Last edited by fly4koi; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:22 PM.

    9. #29
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      I’ve used Aquamaster “Staple” for the past 18 years. 83 bucks for a 22 lb bag on Amazon.

    10. #30
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      Quote Originally Posted by fly4koi View Post
      ... Mazuri: Dehulled Soybean Meal, Ground Corn, Fish Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, Wheat Middlings, Wheat Germ, Fish Oil, Dehydrated Alfalfa Meal ...
      FWIW, I've fed my koi this for decades: Mazuri Koi Platinum Nuggets - $52 for a 20 pound Bag from Tractor Supply

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    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      FWIW, I've fed my koi this for decades: Mazuri Koi Platinum Nuggets - $52 for a 20 pound Bag from Tractor Supply
      Thank you for sharing, I've read online of alleged issues with corn, namely accumulation of fat, yellowing to the color, and more particulates in the poop, wondering if you can share your experience?
      Last edited by fly4koi; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:45 AM.

    12. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      I find cat food is excellent food for koi. At least those containing fish or shrimp.
      Hi Simon,
      I was just reading a thread from about 2021, where you were feeding 1/3 cat food. Here we are 3 years later, with a bit of time under the experiment. I'm pleased to hear it is going well. Is that is still the ratio you use?
      I'd found a Salmon based food, but it has a fairly high fat content, which was my only concern with it. In my ignorance, the ingredient list looked pretty good. May I ask what is the fat content of your cat food? Also, do you keep you Koi outside over winter, and not feed them due cold temperatures? (I'm wondering if this would reduce concerns on high fat).

      I ask, as I'm about to get some more Koi food, and am considering mixing in some of the food I'd found. (I'd have to go find it again, to give you the brand)

    13. #33
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      Quote Originally Posted by fly4koi View Post
      Thank you for sharing, I've read online of alleged issues with corn, namely accumulation of fat, yellowing to the color, and more particulates in the poop, wondering if you can share your experience?
      Regarding fat, my older koi are a mix. I like my koi thick. So that has long been a factor in my selection, and I feed them a lot. Most of my older koi are rather stout males, though a few might be considered thin. The females are heavier, some fat, but a couple are a bit thin for female koi.

      As for yellowing, some of my older koi with white seem a little more "off white", not as bright as others. I don't know how much of that might be due to the food.

      I've never checked for "more particulates in the poop".

    14. #34
      BWG's Avatar
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      This fish had too much corn.

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    15. #35
      fly4koi is offline Senior Member
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      speaking of corn...
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    16. #36
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      Those are two good pics of what happens when feed to much corn. Its called yellow fever. Koi symptoms are they tend to dart and hide first at any noise or movement. They are afraid of their own shadow. They have the propensity of hanging around chickens. Autopsy shows lily-livered condition. And they all have yellow bellies. There is no cure for this condition.
      Last edited by kdh; 3 Weeks Ago at 07:57 AM.

    17. #37
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      After those posts, the price of corn futures dropped lower due to oversupply.

    18. #38
      fly4koi is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt24 View Post
      After those posts, the price of corn futures dropped lower due to oversupply.
      Time to close out my short positions! (rubbing fingers like Mr. Burns)

    19. #39
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      You guys are kidding about corn right? I can't see how fresh - canned or frozen corn would create blockages or problems. I use frozen green peas at least weekly. Sometimes unthawed, sometimes mixed into boiled basmati rice with a decent heap of shaved garlic (bottled).

      One sure fire way to save at least 20% on your Koi food expense is to feed 20% less food...

    20. #40
      kdh is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by aquaholic View Post
      You guys are kidding about corn right? I can't see how fresh - canned or frozen corn would create blockages or problems. I use frozen green peas at least weekly. Sometimes unthawed, sometimes mixed into boiled basmati rice with a decent heap of shaved garlic (bottled).

      One sure fire way to save at least 20% on your Koi food expense is to feed 20% less food...
      Just havn fun

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