Goshiki X Goshiki 2024

[spkennyva]

Orlando, Here's an updated picture, now with a pattern that should be visible.

[Orlando]

Sean, Goshiki have certain characteristics during the stage, I can see the beni in this image but this fish is so young it could go in any direction so look for the kuro to make an appearance in a couple of weeks it will be obvious

[spkennyva]

Yeah, I know it's a fool's errand to make predictions on such young fry, but this is the first of the tobies that displayed a Kohaku-like pattern, which I understand is a good indicator in their development.

[Matt24]

It's amazing how goshiki can look a lot like kohaku for the first several months or even longer, and then suddenly change so much.

[Orlando]

It's amazing how goshiki can look a lot like kohaku for the first several months or even longer, and then suddenly change so much.

Matt even on Goshiki of this age one can see the kuro on the lighter area's in white the black eye's are also a good indicator but the one item that I've never seen a Goshiki not have is the chobo sumi too me and am taking a stab at it is that little kohaku looking one is just going to be that a kohaku. From this spawn I expect to see; Goshiki, kohaku, Shunrai, Benigoi, soragoi and Shiro muji and maybe an Ochiba shigure.

[Orlando]

Sean am going to add an image to this thread to help you see what you are looking for on smaller Goshiki, this one was born in 2014 and it was about 4cm when the photo was taken hope this helps one can see the black eyes the kuro in the lighter area's and the chobo sumi. She's the F1 I spawned in 2023 and she was crossed back to her nephew that was born in 2020.

[spkennyva]

Very nice Orlando, thanks for posting and sharing your knowledge. Do you recall what color the fry above was when it was very small?

If chobo sumi is a hard requirement, and if also yellow/orange fry is another requirement for Goshiki, then I suspect that my yield of Goshiki will be very low. What I'm seeing is that the yellow fry have very limited numbers with chobo sumi. However, most of the white fry do have this mark.

[Orlando]

Very nice Orlando, thanks for posting and sharing your knowledge. Do you recall what color the fry above was when it was very small?

If chobo sumi is a hard requirement, and if also yellow/orange fry is another requirement for Goshiki, then I suspect that my yield of Goshiki will be very low. What I'm seeing is that the yellow fry have very limited numbers with chobo sumi. However, most of the white fry do have this mark.

Sean here's one of the secrets that the breeders in Japan will never share with the rest of the koi breeders in the west. Koi fry will be different from the same parents based on: feeding diet, water temperatures, water harness and there are more items on that list, the point I want to run across is that your work must be documented so one can go back and research changes or irregularities. This Goshiki to Goshiki cross I believe it's the first time that has taken place and don't hesitate to correct me if am wrong. With the information these fry are going to provide to you as they develop you can start to build your base to move forward and by that I mean; are these Goshiki will carry the correct beni and why do I say that Goshiki beni is hard (deep red) I see Goshiki with soft beni (orange) that's not the correct beni on a Goshiki but here's the kicker you won't know how the beni will develop or morph for atleast a year I guess what am trying to convey here is patience is the most important part of this process. First year results are very important because they will teach you what's correct and what's not going in the correct direction. Please understand that am trying to help you make your desicions more manageable not sure if I have mentioned this before but Tom Lay from Champion koi asked me some years ago why I chose to breed one of the most difficult koi varieties I replied anyone can do easy. Goshiki are a 5 color koi and am sharing some of what I've had learned in order to make your path somewhat smoother. Just trying to help here I truly hope that am conveing my thoughts correctly here, it's a long journey my friend you have chosen and I pray you have the patience and resolute to continue your journey

[spkennyva]

Orlando, again, many thanks for sharing your knowledge and the time to put this respopnse together!

Yes, this is the first time we've tried this pair of Goshiki - it took time getting a decent male, which is still the weaker of the pair. However, both the male and female have good beni. The picture of the female doesn't represent the true color of the beni - it's definitely redder in person. She is by far my favorite fish in the pond.

[Matt24]

... Koi fry will be different from the same parents based on: feeding diet, water temperatures, water harness and there are more items on that list ...

That is certainly true, as I have seen in some repeated spawns with the same oyagoi. For example, in 3 showa spawns in 2016-2018, I used the same 3 oyagoi with the only exception being that in 2017, there was one extra male. In 2016, about 25% of the fry were dark. In 2017, lots of the fry were dark, but the vast majority had ugly head deformities that did not happen in 2016 or 2018. In 2018, only about 8% of the fry were dark.

Another example is when spawning 3 metallic oyagoi in 2021, after a few weeks, a substantial percentage of the fry began to exhibit bent body deformities. But in 2023 with the same oyagoi, that did not happen.

... your work must be documented so one can go back and research changes or irregularities. ...

I definitely agree with that. Sometimes I think, "This is something I will never forget", because it seems so important at the time. But after spawning koi a few years, things start to run together in my mind. I might forget something, or just think it happened in a different spawn than it did. So I have to go back and check my notes and am glad I made them.

[spkennyva]

Hello everyone.

Just a quick update. Our family took a vacation to Europe for two weeks. During our absence, we had a trusted friend manage the koi pond, including the fry tanks. This was a tall order for them, given the delicate and intricate details involved. Overall, they did a fantastic job, but their inexperience did result in some losses. Roughly (20 to 30 percent) from this pairing died (the other 2024 parings fared much better). The bright side is that we still have a good number to work with, and many of these are showing chobo sumi with beni coming in. They are still small, but I feel more optimist about the pairing.

[Matt24]

Welcome back! Sorry to hear about those fry losses, but it sounds like your friend did pretty well over all.

[spkennyva]

Sean, Goshiki are slow growers from beginning to end, I've learned that after 16 years. Just be patient.

Yeah, "slow" doesn't fully capture what I'm seeing .... I've never had a spawning with growth this slow!! There are few that are decent sized, but LOTS of very small ones. These will likely need to be culled this spring.

[Orlando]

Yeah, "slow" doesn't fully capture what I'm seeing .... I've never had a spawning with growth this slow!! There are few that are decent sized, but LOTS of very small ones. These will likely need to be culled this spring.

If you are looking for breeding stock just follow the traits you are looking for, it's taking me 15yrs to be able to cross an F1 born in 2014 to an F2 born in 2020 and this was the first year that I was able to take to the koi show and offer F3 generation for the public. In my humble opinion koi to me have been the largest and most difficult challenge because so much of the unknown I guess that's probably why a large number of koi farms in Japan are in their 3rd and 4th generation of koi breeders.

[spkennyva]

Yeah, that’s something I thought abut too. The Japanese have many generations of acquired knowledge & experience on what yields good numbers and quality. Not to mention their massive facilities, access to grow-out ponds, and breed specific culling knowledge. It’s all humbling, but despite these deficits, we have all gotten a few that keep us engaged. Kinda like panning for gold