Matsukawabake from Showa x Shiro spawn?

[jaijai]

I've recently bred a showa female to showa male and gin shiro male. I see alot of fry that are somewhat grayish to dirty whitish with kage/subtle sumi. Haven't seen this kind of colorations/pheno before with my previous breedings showaxshowa and showaxhiutsuri projects. I've also seen an fb post from one of the koi groups that they were able to produce matsukawabake out of showa x shiro spawn. Apologies, wasnt able to take photos of them as they are currently in my nursery pond and they're very senstitive / alert to other movements and swims away very fast.

Does anyone here have photos of matsukawabake fry or ginrin shiro fry - just for reference.

Thanks!

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[Matt24]

From trying to breed showa from 2015-2020, often with one or more ginrin in the mix, I would sometimes see ginrin shiro utsuri fry. No long term keepers. With all the oyagoi being showa, little orange places would usually arise on them. But for examples see:
post 30 of https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...awn-2020/page2
posts 55 & 58 of https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...awn-2019/page3
posts 81, 126, and 135 of https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...awn-2018/page5
I don't recall what I would call matsukawabake, though sometimes it seems showa and utsuri can have sumi in places that resembles kage.

[jaijai]

From trying to breed showa from 2015-2020, often with one or more ginrin in the mix, I would sometimes see ginrin shiro utsuri fry. No long term keepers. With all the oyagoi being showa, little orange places would usually arise on them. But for examples see:
post 30 of https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...awn-2020/page2
posts 55 & 58 of https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...awn-2019/page3
posts 81, 126, and 135 of https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...awn-2018/page5
I don't recall what I would call matsukawabake, though sometimes it seems showa and utsuri can have sumi in places that resembles kage.

Thanks for the references to your previous breeding projects. I'd say your adlib showa might be the closest one as I've used exactly the same pairings (fem and male showa, male shiro but mine is ginrin shiro). As I mentioned above, I already had several showa spawn previously and most of it are either all showa or with hi utsuri in the mix. Due to this, I kinda figured out already how the showa, shiro , hi utsuri looked like when they were young. But in this specific spawn, fry's really have an interesting appearance/coloration/pattern. Some are of greenish hue with subtle sumi and some are whitish/grayish with subtle sumi (the white/gray ones resemble a shiro utsuri but again I had shiros in my previous spawns and so I could tell the difference). I've attached some of the photos from your adlib showa post - did the white ones from that batch turned out shiros later on?

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[Orlando]

Jaijai, you're on the right track but those fry are way to small for a good assessment, give them another 90 days and you will start to get a better picture.

[Matt24]

... I've attached some of the photos from your adlib showa post - did the white ones from that batch turned out shiros later on? ...

I can't say for sure, since there were so many to keep track of, but I think most of the white ones became kohaku, shiro muji, orange muji. I think that most of the showa and utsuri (hi and shiro) were pretty dark at that early age. Then they would begin to show light gray and dark gray patches that would later become white and black. Seems like it was at about 1.5 to 2 months that the dark fry around 2" would suddenly start looking like showa and utsuri. I suspect it would be faster in your warmer climate.

[Matt24]

I can't say for sure, since there were so many to keep track of, but I think most of the white ones became kohaku, shiro muji, orange muji. I think that most of the showa and utsuri (hi and shiro) were pretty dark at that early age. Then they would begin to show light gray and dark gray patches that would later become white and black. Seems like it was at about 1.5 to 2 months that the dark fry around 2" would suddenly start looking like showa and utsuri. I suspect it would be faster in your warmer climate.

I will make one clarification to what I wrote above, that the ones that will become kohaku or orange muji, begin to look yellow when they are only a few days old.