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  • Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
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    Thread: Need to confirm: Is this Saprolegnia?

    1. #21
      Lori WG is offline Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      So the excess slime coat. NOT SAP. Can be from many things. Even treatments. Since you have bombed your pond with all kinds of chemicals and its onluy getting worse. I am going to (assume) that parasites are not the issue. Is the koi flashing or acting abnormal in any way? You do have a few small areas of sap. But that could be from damaged skin areas or perhaps bacteria injuries etc. If it were sap ALL would be green. So the only think that I can think of is bacterial. Since you cannot catch the koi. Medicated food would be your option. However I cant stress enough. This is all just a guess on my part and it is never wise to guess (without removing the koi and inspecting with skin scrapes gill checks etc)

      Its also best to have just on thread going on the same subject as it gets confusing.
      I forgot to ask you this earlier — I have read the protocols for using medications put directly into the pond, but in terms of the oral medication, it simply says to feed for five days and stop. So, for example, if it is skin flukes, do I feed them the oral medication for five days, stop, and that’s it?

      One more question. Given my overall situation, (and assuming I use oral medication for now), how important do you feel it is to do a large water change? A couple of people have suggested a 50% water change. I am asking because, quite frankly, water in California is expensive. In the past three months, I have done three 30% water changes, and weekly 10% water changes, along with backwashing. My last water bill was a little over $600, where it normally runs about $100. (this is partially my fault as I have learned I should’ve called the water company and told them I was doing these large water changes. Again, I am learning as I go.) Anyway, if you feel the water change necessary, I will do it. I just want to confirm before doing so.

      By the way, I actually went to a local establishment that sells koi in my area and told them that they could have the ill fish if they would just come and get them and let me know what’s wrong with them. I have someone interested in doing that. I am hoping that works.

      Thanks again!
      Last edited by Lori WG; 11-23-2023 at 02:00 AM.
      Lori WG

      “If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.” ~ 14th Dalai Lama

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    2. #22
      kdh is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lori WG View Post
      I forgot to ask you this earlier — I have read the protocols for using medications put directly into the pond, but in terms of the oral medication, it simply says to feed for five days and stop. So, for example, if it is skin flukes, do I feed them the oral medication for five days, stop, and that’s it?

      One more question. Given my overall situation, (and assuming I use oral medication for now), how important do you feel it is to do a large water change? A couple of people have suggested a 50% water change. I am asking because, quite frankly, water in California is expensive. In the past three months, I have done three 30% water changes, and weekly 10% water changes, along with backwashing. My last water bill was a little over $600, where it normally runs about $100. (this is partially my fault as I have learned I should’ve called the water company and told them I was doing these large water changes. Again, I am learning as I go.) Anyway, if you feel the water change necessary, I will do it. I just want to confirm before doing so.

      By the way, I actually went to a local establishment that sells koi in my area and told them that they could have the ill fish if they would just come and get them and let me know what’s wrong with them. I have someone interested in doing that. I am hoping that works.

      Thanks again!
      Please understand that I only gave a possibility of bacterial and this could be wrong. Mainly because bacterial issues usually get worse quicker than your time frame but not always. So I would get a hold of a koi club. They usually are happy to help. I cant empathize this enough.
      You may have your fish removed that have the problem but that may not resolve the problem. As you said other fish have red spots. You have done enough water changes. Your water is clear and parameter readings are good. Than your good to go.

      Your koi that is the sickest and moving slowly is probably on a limited time frame of surviving.

      Are you sure you gave the proper dosings of proformC and PP

      Bacterial issues could be primary or secondary. Just as parasite issues could be.
      Last edited by kdh; 11-23-2023 at 11:29 AM.

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      Please understand that I only gave a possibility of bacterial and this could be wrong. Mainly because bacterial issues usually get worse quicker than your time frame but not always. So I would get a hold of a koi club. They usually are happy to help. I cant empathize this enough.
      You may have your fish removed that have the problem but that may not resolve the problem. As you said other fish have red spots. You have done enough water changes. Your water is clear and parameter readings are good. Than your good to go.

      Your koi that is the sickest and moving slowly is probably on a limited time frame of surviving.

      Are you sure you gave the proper dosings of proformC and PP

      Bacterial issues could be primary or secondary. Just as parasite issues could be.
      Thank you for your thorough response.

      In terms of the dosing for the previous medications, yes, I am pretty confident those were accurate. I teach logic and critical thinking for a living, and I am pretty particular about accuracy and calculations.

      I did PM someone regarding a Koi club in my area. My concern is the fish dying before I make these connections. By the way, though, I did start the fluke medication, and, the most ill fish seem to be doing better! Well, I am defining it as better. The skin is coming off of the worst one, and the skin underneath is white. I don’t know if this is considered a normal response when a fish has skin flukes and SAP? The skin underneath, though, looks much better than what was there.
      Last edited by Lori WG; 11-23-2023 at 01:45 PM.
      Lori WG

      “If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.” ~ 14th Dalai Lama

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by Lori WG View Post
      Thank you for your thorough response.

      In terms of the dosing for the previous medications, yes, I am pretty confident those were accurate. I teach logic and critical thinking for a living, and I am pretty particular about accuracy and calculations.

      I did PM someone regarding a Koi club in my area. My concern is the fish dying before I make these connections. By the way, though, I did start the fluke medication, and, the most ill fish seem to be doing better! Well, I am defining it as better. The skin is coming off of the worst one, and the skin underneath is white. I don’t know if this is considered a normal response when a fish has skin flukes and SAP? The skin underneath, though, looks much better than what was there.
      pics?

    5. #25
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      Quote Originally Posted by kdh View Post
      pics?
      I am not able to do that today, but I am going to do a video tomorrow as I know that has been requested a couple of times. I feel like the pictures came out pretty poorly. I will try that again, and see if I can get any better ones. That was my iPhone. Unfortunately, I do not own a better camera.
      Lori WG

      “If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.” ~ 14th Dalai Lama

    6. #26
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      Videos… and New Symptoms/Fish Issues :(

      I tried to submit a set of videos, and it says that I can only submit one at a time. So, because each one is a separate issue, I will put them in separate postings.

      This first one is just a general video of the pond and the fish as a couple of you asked, for a video of the general behavior of the Koi:



      I also saw a bluegill today with what looks like a bad case of Pop eye….yes, seriously… 😐

      This does at some point become fun and relaxing, yes?
      Last edited by Lori WG; 11-24-2023 at 07:31 PM.
      Lori WG

      “If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.” ~ 14th Dalai Lama

    7. #27
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      Video 2: Pink growth on back and white growth on tail?

      Lori WG

      “If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.” ~ 14th Dalai Lama

    8. #28
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      Video #3: brown spots on shoulders of koi?

      Lori WG

      “If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.” ~ 14th Dalai Lama

    9. #29
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      Video #4: skin coming off head of orange koi



      Note: each video I tried to add for this fish just seems to blur out the area about which I am trying to focus. Let’s try pictures:

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      Last edited by Lori WG; 11-24-2023 at 10:59 PM.
      Lori WG

      “If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion.” ~ 14th Dalai Lama

    10. #30
      fly4koi is offline Senior Member
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      Hard to say, some pictures like the last one looks like the fish is in rough shape. I would pay attention to the water quality and see if the condition improves. Do you know what's the deepest depth for your pond? Are there shaded area where fish can hide from the sun if needed?

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    11. #31
      coolwon's Avatar
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      Separate the fish into quarantine container preferably with a filter, and treat it with a fungal

      medication

      Look for a fungal fish medication,read the instruction

      It is contagious.

      It is fungal Saprolegnia with fin rot.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    12. #32
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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      Separate the fish into quarantine container preferably with a filter, and treat it with a fungal

      medication

      Look for a fungal fish medication,read the instruction

      It is contagious.

      It is fungal Saprolegnia with fin rot.
      Proform-C doesn't work?

    13. #33
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      Did you check to see if it works/or is the most suitable for the fungus.

      The fish are in a bad way, they need the best product available.

      Is that Malachite and Formalin?

      I read Proform C is M & F and is suitable, amongst other things for fungal outbreaks.

      These fish need dedicated treatment for them to recover.

      Are those rocks on the pond bottom?
      Last edited by coolwon; 11-27-2023 at 06:54 AM.
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    14. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      Did you check to see if it works/or is the most suitable for the fungus.

      The fish are in a bad way, they need the best product available.

      Is that Malachite and Formalin?

      I read Proform C is M & F and is suitable, amongst other things for fungal outbreaks.

      These fish need dedicated treatment for them to recover.

      Are those rocks on the pond bottom?
      As I stated before. The green areas are sap. Sap collects algae and that is why it is green. BUT that is all the sap on the fish. If there was more it would be green also. Sap eats dead tissue. So those areas had more serious issues. Can sap spread. Yes if the water is of poor quality and the fish is stressed. But not common. When a koi starts healing from bacterial ulcers for example. Its quiet common to have sap move in to clean up the dead tissue. Then it just sloughs away and sometimes the other koi pick at it. I have seen this many times in the past.

      Because the owner changed many things and does things I imagine different than the original owner of pond. Stressors appeared and then the problems.

      Kois slim coat is looking better and fish seems to act ok. But it still looks rough and this could still be from parasite bacterial viral.

      Koi should be quarantined and treated for whatever the problem is.

      The other koi with the red area could be as simple as an injury. But would watch closely too see if it gets worse. If it does, again it would have to be captured and treated.

      Blue gill with popeye could be from many things.

    15. #35
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      An Update

      So, I finally found a vet consultant from Western University College of Vet medicine who was willing to come out to the house!! These were her findings:

      1. What looks like slime coat and the pink spots are all Carp Pox -- thus the reason why nothing I did changed the situation and why all of these new issues cropped up the last few weeks as it has gotten colder. (I just saw a new one right on the koi's eye -- that seems like a problem...?)

      2. The brown spot on the red/black koi is Cancer. She did not seem to think this is a concern. In all of my research, I have not read anything on Koi with Cancer. I need to study that one. She did not think anything should be done with that.

      3. She is unsure about the starting point of the SAP on the orange/white koi with with black spots, but there is no evidence of a bacterial infection. She said possibly sunburn which one of you alluded to as well.

      So, it looks like the only thing to be treated is the Popeye in the bluegill. What a relief! And how ironic that I am trying to eradicate an infection that cannot be eliminated!

      Now, my question is: why is she not concerned about the koi with cancer?

      Also -- there are medications to reduce herpes virus in people -- acyclovir, valacyclovir, and famciclovir. Can you use that in Koi? I didn't think to ask the vet, but this koi I just saw having the large pink spot right over her eye cannot be comfortable!!!

      Thank you!
      Last edited by Lori WG; 12-01-2023 at 02:11 AM.
      Lori WG

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    16. #36
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      Carp pox is pretty common, it shows up when the koi's immune system is low, usually when water gets colder. It's usually not serious and goes away when the water gets warmer or the environment stressor is gone.
      Cancer, not sure what you can do with that one. You can look up "hikui" and see if the photos match what you are seeing on yours.
      Sunburn, I'd say maybe provide an area where they can hide from the sun, maybe like a shade sail, SoCal sun can be brutal.

      For the time being, just monitor the water at least weekly until you get into a routine of maintaining your water quality.
      What are you feeding them and how often/much are you feeding?

      Some people run UV and ozone to help eliminating pathogens in the water, I know water is expensive and the evaporation rate is high too, I would say get your test kit ready (KH, ammonia, nitrite, nitrate), in my experience good KH level will solve most of the issue with water, and when nitrate is too high (>80ppm) then you'd have to exchange water. KH can be buffered by baking soda, you can find them at costco or home depot, not expensive, the pool grade is fine.

      You have a sizable pond, maybe you can fence off the upper part where the waterfall comes in and get some aquatic plants there, water hyacinth grows very fast (check local laws) and what you do is let them grow and rake them out and chop them up and let them die before disposing, so that you have a way to eliminate the nitrogen in the water w/o having to do too much water exchange.

      Rainwater harvesting is another idea to explore, but your roof material might cause issue in the water quality, and rain is acidic and you'd need to buffer it with baking soda, but should still come out cheaper than water, just something to think about.
      Last edited by fly4koi; 12-01-2023 at 04:02 AM.

    17. #37
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      I doubt sunburn this time of the year. Also sap develops on a healthy koi from dead tissue. It is rare for sap to just take over a fish. Unless conditions such as bad water and other stressors show up at the same time.
      No treatment for carp pox
      Hikui is found in gosanke (kohaku,sanke,showa). And almost always in koi with good/high quality hi (red). In rare occasions it can be found in the shiro(white) and even Sumi (black).

      I thought you might have had carp pox. But since there was sap and a scale or two looked raised. Figured it was something else. As it would be highly unusual for carp pox to do that kind of damage. Never gave it thought that it could be two separate issues.
      Last edited by kdh; 12-01-2023 at 08:56 AM.

    18. #38
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      A few responses:

      1. The Vet confirmed that the nitrate and nitrate are zero and commented that it is uncommon but good.

      2. The Kh is over the 200 ppm indicated on the test. The Gh is above 140 ppm. She did not say to do anything about this, although she seemed a bit concerned. I wonder as I have seen the Ph above 8.5. Should I change anything?

      3. Fly4koi, I feed them Nijikawa Four Seasons Premium Koi Food. How much I give them depends on the time of year as they eat less the colder eat gets. Right now, about a cup which they eat within three minutes. (If you know of another brand you recommend that is less expensive, please let me know! This is what the previous owner left.)

      3. Also, Flyforkoi, there are two large UVs that run 24/7. However, I am wondering: do the UV lights go out early? I am asking because when I moved here and put in the UVs, there was a great deal of algae. They are now a little over a year old, but the upper pond still has a lot of algae. I thought the UVs would have helped more with this.

      And thanks for the info on how to work with the hyacinth -- very interesting!

      And I do rain water harvest! The man who built all of this was an upscale survivalist. There is 5,000 gallon above ground rainwater tank and one below ground as big as my as my very large sunroom! I just used all of that up on the yard. (He also has these pipes I can open that sends anything that is degrading at the bottom of the ponds throughout the landscaping -- like fertilizer.

      4. Kdh, the SAP started way back in July. So, sunburn would make sense.

      5. The Vet said to give them Oranges/Vitamin C for the Carp Pox, but they have NO interest in oranges. I know there are prepared Vitamin C liquids. Can I just get some buffered ascorbic acid, mix it in some water, soak their food in it, and go from there? Or do you have another suggestion?

      Thank you!
      Lori WG

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    19. #39
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      With a KH and GH at the levels you have, you don't even need to check the pH, it will be rock solid. If you use a large amount of the rain water, it will lower the KH to potentially require addition of baking soda to maintain a KH of over 100ppm.

      As for your question on the UV, the bulbs will typically require replacement at about one year. They will still look good, but the intensity drops off to the point it no longer works. Larger units on smaller systems last longer because they or oversize to start with, but as they decay, the green water algae will definitely let you know it is time to replace bulbs. UV works only on stuff that travels through the unit, so algae on the walls, or string algae is not affected by UV.
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    20. #40
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      Here are some great sights. They require some reading but very informative.

      https://hanoverkoifarms.com/

      https://www.mankysanke.co.uk/

      http://www.lincsfishhealth.co.uk/index.html
      Last edited by kdh; 12-04-2023 at 09:52 AM.

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