Need to confirm: Is this Saprolegnia?

[Lori WG]

Hi there. I have been posting regarding my fish having Saprolegnia. I understand that Saprolegnia is generally a secondary infection. So, I have also gotten some thing for a bacterial infection. However, First, I want to confirm that this is Saprolegnia versus velvet Disease. I apologize that the pictures are not any better. I have a 9 foot deep pond, and catching them is extremely difficult.

So, my questions:
1. What do you think it is?
2. How would you treat it?
3. At what point would you expect it to go away, or at least, see a significant improvement? (they have looked almost exactly like this for three months now, and I have spent a lot of money, trying to fix the issue! I need to do something else!)
Thanks!!

Lori

[fly4koi]

Without scoping I would treat with 3X Proform-C followed by 2X Fluke-M, aka "shotgun treatment"
Make sure water condition is perfect so they can heal quicker, winter is coming.

[SimonW]

Without scoping I would treat with 3X Proform-C followed by 2X Fluke-M, aka "shotgun treatment"
Make sure water condition is perfect so they can heal quicker, winter is coming.

I would not do a such general treatment yet.

Normally fish don´t get infected by water mold. You need to find out the cause first. It is probably water quality issue.

After ensuring good water quality and if this is the only fish with infection a topical treatment with for instance iodine is good enough.

If the infection affects many koi then fly4koi´s advice is good.

[cindy]

Are you doing water changes weekly? Looks like more than one fish. Agree with either water problems or parasites. What’s your temp?
Tell us what all you have done. Some treatments are useless. And you are Right sap is a secondary infection. We need to find out what causes skin to open

Do you have test kits? Especially kh?

[Lori WG]

Are you doing water changes weekly? Looks like more than one fish. Agree with either water problems or parasites. What’s your temp?
Tell us what all you have done. Some treatments are useless. And you are Right sap is a secondary infection. We need to find out what causes skin to open

Do you have test kits? Especially kh?

I apologize for not responding earlier. Apparently, I had not subscribed to the thread. At any rate, to answer your questions, let me say that I bought my current home one year ago, and so, I have owned this Koi pond for one year. I have no other experience caring for fish. I have a 20,000 gallon, 9 foot deep pond with about 20 Koi, 20 small bluegill, and some mosquito fish.

I do test the water regularly, and all numbers have been quite good, although the API water test kit I have does not have a Kh test. I just bought that recently as a result of research. Also, although I have read on some sites that this is OK, the pH is a little over 8.0. To be honest, I’m not sure if you just mean the current temperature of the water? It is currently about midnight, and the temperature reading is currently 57°.

I regularly backwash the pond every three days, and it is clear all the way down to the bottom of the pond. I have a Mishimizu (I wrote Matala earlier, but I meant Mishimizu) 10.0 Pond filtration system with two 400 W UV systems that run 24/7.

In July, I lost about 10 bluegill. They looked perfectly fine. There was absolutely nothing on them to show that anything was wrong, and the water numbers were where they were supposed to be. Several would die each day.. I had a vet come out who could not find a cause for this. He finally concluded it was due to the aerial spraying for mosquitoes that had taken place in our area. (He did offer to research more, and now, I wish I had taken him up on that. But, that is another story.) when the Koi became ill, I started treating for SAP as it is my understanding that it is the only infection that can present as algae on the Koi body. Now, I am not sure. You will notice that I said it was July when I had the Vet come out, and it is now November. The fish remained consistent, not worse, not better, for a long time. Just recently, they appear to look a bit worse.

Since July, I have treated the pond with ProForm two times, each time, treating three times a week. Then, with PP three times, first at 2.0%, then at 2.5, and then at 3.0. One day after each of the PP treatments, I also added 20 tablespoons of sodium percarbonate. I did this once a week for three weeks. Luckily, only a few of my koi have been affected thus far. However, I cannot seem to get rid of it! I also just did another round of Proform ending today, starting with 1.5 times the regular dose, and the other two times being regular doses.

I’m not expecting to see any results from the latest round. However, I did this last dose because winter is basically here, and as I said previously, I am sad to report that the ones with the white filmy coating— which I assume is fungus —appear to look worse. 😞 (I am very aware that I am supposed to take the afflicted fish out and remove the problem areas. I bought the emergency kit, the clove oil, and etc. I have addressed this on other threads, but I am having an issue getting the fish out of this 9 foot deep pond that the previous owner created.)

A note: Starting this past winter, a large bog filled with plants connected with everything else has been removed, an upper pond that is connected to everything had a wall built and obviously had to be cemented, had new epoxy, painted everywhere, and, etc. Even the adjoining streams had to be redone with filling cracks, new epoxy, and etc. Another bog full of cattails, which had been there for 20 years, full of dirt and never cleaned/cleared out were also removed. (now that I am more knowledgeable, I would have done that differently. Again, that is another story.) My point is that I am guessing this all affected the fish.

Oh! Out of desperation and winter coming, I did get some Focus and Oxalinic acid to mix into the fish food if I do not see results pretty quickly. I hate to do that as even though the medication they are getting are supposed to be both antibacterial and antifungal, the concept of medications doing both of those things simultaneously is really antithetical. Generally, antibiotics bring on fungal infections. So, I am hesitant to use this medication. However, if the underlying infection is bacterial, then I suppose it would be a good idea?

So — what do you suggest? Quite frankly, this has become incredibly expensive with no results. There has got to be a better way.

And sorry for the long post— I have become koi obsessed!!

Thank you!

[fly4koi]

Please provide actual numbers form your API test kit, and get a KH kit. I would treat with Proform-C + Fluke-M, both on day 1, Proform-C again on day 4, and both on day 8, I think the fish look very rough...

[kdh]

So the excess slime coat. NOT SAP. Can be from many things. Even treatments. Since you have bombed your pond with all kinds of chemicals and its onluy getting worse. I am going to (assume) that parasites are not the issue. Is the koi flashing or acting abnormal in any way? You do have a few small areas of sap. But that could be from damaged skin areas or perhaps bacteria injuries etc. If it were sap ALL would be green. So the only think that I can think of is bacterial. Since you cannot catch the koi. Medicated food would be your option. However I cant stress enough. This is all just a guess on my part and it is never wise to guess (without removing the koi and inspecting with skin scrapes gill checks etc)

Its also best to have just on thread going on the same subject as it gets confusing.

[Lori WG]

No, the fish are not flashing in anyway. Really, they aren’t acting any differently. Well, that is not true. The one with the algae on the head has slowed down this week.

I had not considered flukes, but two of you who are senior members suggested that. I studied all of the other fish today, and now I do see some other very small pink spots. So, I have studied that a lot today. I have come to the conclusion that I think you are right. So, instead of using the Oxalinic acid, although it is gram-negative, I bought the Praziquantel today. It is coming in tomorrow. (I saw Oxalinic acid discussed on other websites, but I do not see it discussed here. Is there a reason for that? Do you not suggest it?)

And sorry about posting in two different places. I had originally posted assuming the diagnosis, and this time I was asking for a different diagnosis, thus the reason for a separate thread. However, I can also see where this was confusing. Again, sorry about that!

I will provide an update in a couple of weeks.

Thanks again!

[fly4koi]

I want to see your full water quality parameter, meaning, KH, pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate, dissolved Oxygen, maybe you have provided somewhere else I can't remember. If there's anything off I'd try a 50% water change with Safe/Prime to dechlorinate the water, and if the KH is too low (generally not an issue in CA though) add baking soda to buffer, and I would stop using anything to kill the algae, and I'll stop using PP or OA for the time being. If you have air pump and air stone, try set one up and drop into the main pool and see if the fish would gather around the air column, if so then the oxygen level might be low.

If you don't mind the cost of water you can actually just go ahead and change out 50% of the water with conditioner like SeaChem Safe which is pretty cheap to make it safe for the fish.
Sometimes video can capture better details than photos so maybe you can try that, it's hard to tell if it's pattern or issue.

As for attempting for fluke treatment, Fluke-M is preferred, Cascade Pond Supplies out in Oregon has it, it is best to confirm the parasites before treating, I had suggested a regiment in an early reply, you will see improvement in a week if the med is working.

[Lori WG]

I want to see your full water quality parameter, meaning, KH, pH, Ammonia, Nitrite, and Nitrate, dissolved Oxygen, maybe you have provided somewhere else I can't remember. If there's anything off I'd try a 50% water change with Safe/Prime to dechlorinate the water, and if the KH is too low (generally not an issue in CA though) add baking soda to buffer, and I would stop using anything to kill the algae, and I'll stop using PP or OA for the time being. If you have air pump and air stone, try set one up and drop into the main pool and see if the fish would gather around the air column, if so then the oxygen level might be low.

If you don't mind the cost of water you can actually just go ahead and change out 50% of the water with conditioner like SeaChem Safe which is pretty cheap to make it safe for the fish.
Sometimes video can capture better details than photos so maybe you can try that, it's hard to tell if it's pattern or issue.

As for attempting for fluke treatment, Fluke-M is preferred, Cascade Pond Supplies out in Oregon has it, it is best to confirm the parasites before treating, I had suggested a regiment in an early reply, you will see improvement in a week if the med is working.

Hi, Fly4koi.

My pond numbers:

Ph: 8.0 (I know this is higher than average, but it has been there since I moved in, and from what I have read, many fish live in this environment. So, I’ve been hesitant to change it.)
Temperature: 58 degrees
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 0
Kh: Unknown. Waiting for test kit. Everything else I have always tested as it was in the API kit. It is just recently I realized Kh was an issue.

I do not know the dissolved oxygen level. However, there are two large 5(m3/h) floor disk aerators along with two large wall fountains, two streams with three separate waterfall drops, and an additional pump put in to move the water toward the skimmer. I have never seen the fish struggle for air, gulp at the top, or go to the aerators for additional oxygen. This is true, even when I have added the ProformC and the PP. however, I do have an additional air stones and a Pump. So, I will go ahead and put those in the lower pond and see what they do.

I will look at Cascade Supplies for the Fluke-M. I see now that it consists of Flubendazole, an entirely different antibiotic. Thanks for the location as it was a harder one to find. Can that one be given orally?

Thank you again!

[fly4koi]

Mix Fluke-M with Proform-C at 11.8g per 1000 gal of water, dump into pond slowly. Check packet for correct dosage amount.
I'm always suspicious about 0 nitrate reading, there's a particular procedure that must be followed otherwise the result is not accurate.

[kdh]

Doing all this shotgun treatments is not healthy for your koi. You have all ready done 2 treatments of Pro Form C and 3 with PP and it continues to get worse.
Search for a local koi club. They would have the experience to net and inspect your koi.

[RichToyBox]

As for your pH being high, it is not. With a good KH of over 100ppm, 6 drops on the API kit, you can expect the pH to be pretty rock solid at about 8.3, and it is much more important that it is rock solid morning to evening than any single value. Are you using the API Wide Range pH or the High Range pH. The wide range pH kit is really of little value except to point you to the High Range kit or the normal pH kit, and if the pH is above the mid 7's you should be using the High Range pH kit.

[Lori WG]

Doing all this shotgun treatments is not healthy for your koi. You have all ready done 2 treatments of Pro Form C and 3 with PP and it continues to get worse.
Search for a local koi club. They would have the experience to net and inspect your koi.

I agree with everything you said. I noticed that there is a Koi club pretty close to me that is actually pretty active here. I will get in touch with them as well.

[Lori WG]

As for your pH being high, it is not. With a good KH of over 100ppm, 6 drops on the API kit, you can expect the pH to be pretty rock solid at about 8.3, and it is much more important that it is rock solid morning to evening than any single value. Are you using the API Wide Range pH or the High Range pH. The wide range pH kit is really of little value except to point you to the High Range kit or the normal pH kit, and if the pH is above the mid 7's you should be using the High Range pH kit.

I ordered but haven't gotten the Kh kit yet. Since I had to have pipes replaced in the house when I moved in this year due to hard water sediments, I am guessing the Kh will be high. Truth be told, I did not know there were different ranges of Ph kits! I have the Master API kit. I will look into that!

[Lori WG]

Mix Fluke-M with Proform-C at 11.8g per 1000 gal of water, dump into pond slowly. Check packet for correct dosage amount.
I'm always suspicious about 0 nitrate reading, there's a particular procedure that must be followed otherwise the result is not accurate.

About the nitrate reading -- do you feel the API Master Test kit is reliable? I follow those instructions. Is there another more preferred one? (Richard just mentioned the idea of the API Wide Range pH versus the High Range pH -- I am not sure which one that kit even came with -- I need to look into that as well.) Thank you!

[kdh]

Doing all this shotgun treatments is not healthy for your koi. You have all ready done 2 treatments of Pro Form C and 3 with PP and it continues to get worse.
Search for a local koi club. They would have the experience to net and inspect your koi.

Might consider joining one. They are educational and fun

[fly4koi]

About the nitrate reading -- do you feel the API Master Test kit is reliable? I follow those instructions. Is there another more preferred one? (Richard just mentioned the idea of the API Wide Range pH versus the High Range pH -- I am not sure which one that kit even came with -- I need to look into that as well.) Thank you!

API kit is ok, though chemical can expire. High range pH just means it's used to test the alkaline side of the pH scale as opposed to the acidic side.
Again, it's better to confirm parasite before treatment, one other alternative is to safely do a 50% water change, there might be something in the water that's irritating the fish but what the API test can cover, hard to say.

[Lori WG]

A Mini-Update and a Question

So, the fish that is the most ill lost a patch of the fungus-covered scale on top of its head today. I was expecting it to be a red ulcer underneath or at least red inflamed skin underneath, but the skin is just white -- no ulcer, no anything. Is that what you would expect after seeing the pictures? This is the orange fish with algae on its head in the pictures at the top of the thread.

[fly4koi]

White skin usually indicates the area is healing, leave it alone. If you can get better video that might help to see the conditions of the fish.