2023 First Amateur Breeding Project

[SamAxe51]

What started out as a pond cleanout, ended up becoming nearly a full rebuild. A leak in the liner had caused erosion in the sand wall (yes, we have sand in Florida) outside of the liner, which had filled up with pond water. When draining the pond, once the water level got low enough, the wall collapsed... from the top left, all the way down to the bottom right (where the skimmer is). Luckily, all the koi made it out safely.



The 15 year-old, 8,000+ gallon, two-tiered pond was designed & constructed by a company that is no longer in business. I wasn't around when it was put in, so I wasn't aware how it was built. Obvoiusly, they could have done a better job, as we found out there wasn't much wall support... no underlay, and only a few 1x4 wood planks to hold everything in place. As you can see, for the rebuild, we fortified it with sandbags... then were also able to make a few other changes for the better... upgraded the skimmer, moved the drain to the center, add more aeration, ect. Here's the end result...



As all of this work was being done, and considering I basically have two ponds, I started thinking about which koi I'd put back in the top section (around 1,000 gallons, 2 ft. deep)... before putting all the rest in the bottom section (7,000+ gallons, 4.5 ft. deep). This is when I decided I'd make my half-a$$ed attempt at breeding. In a weeks time, I did a ton of research. I read online articles, watched a lot of videos, and even looked at a bunch of Koiphen forum posts. With all the information I was able to gather... as much as you'd think one would need to know from spawning, to caring for the eggs, to feeding & raising fry... I think I put together a fairly decent gameplan. Of course, I knew I'd still be learning & figuring out plenty of things along the way.

Now, I did mention "half-a$$ed attempt at breeding". Here was my plan... Instead of setting up the traditional breeding tank, I'd just put a select few koi up in that smaller top section (like two females & three or four males), set out a couple spawning brushes, and then see what happens. A controlled flock spawn, if that what you want to call it. I knew I'd be limiting the amount of eggs I'd be able to collect, but that was fine. This was going to be a small scale operation. Here was my sophisticated set-up...



As for the chosen koi, not knowing what varieties pair well together, here's what I went with...

MALES


1. 15" Showa
2. 10" Gin Rin Sanke... err, I mean... Showa (small, I know)
3. 14" Goshiki
4. 23" Kohaku

FEMALES


1. 16" Gin Rin Hariwake
2. 16" Gin Rin Sanke


Female #1 went in together with the boys during the restock, while female #2 remained behind. She was a recent purchase, and still needed time in her quarantine tank. I didn't think female #1 was even ready yet. I just figured it'll happen when it happens, and hopefully the spawning brushes catch some of it when it does. However, I noticed her being chased around that evening, and the next morning we had eggs. Female #1 went into an isolated quarantine to recover, while the eggs went to a separate pool... where they hatched four days later.



Just over a week later, it was time for female #2 to join the population. I wasn't sure if she was ready, as she didn't appear to be carrying eggs. However, as I was cleaning out her quarantine tank, I saw some eggs stuck to the bottom. So, on the off chance she wasn't done yet, I put out a couple more spawning brushes. Next morning... we had eggs again!

So, I had two spawnings, appx two weeks apart. Here's recent pictures of what the fry in spawn #1 looked like after 8 weeks...



Here's the ones from spawn #2 after 5 weeks...



Here's a recent shot of the tobies, with a few random ones that got mixed in. They all play nice. (a mix from the two spawnings- 9 weeks & 7 weeks)...



I haven't culled anything yet, as I haven't noticed any deformities... and am not sure what to look for as far as colors & patterns. I would guess that the ones that refuse to grow would be the ones to make disappear? What say you?

If you have gotten this far, thanks for reading! As always, any feedback... good, bad, or ugly will be accepted.

[cindy]

Beautiful pond. What are you gonna do with all the babies?

[SamAxe51]

Beautiful pond. What are you gonna do with all the babies?

Thank you! Not sure yet. Grow 'em out, keep some, sell or give away the rest. Or... I could just make fish sticks.

[Matt24]

Major congratulations on successful spawns on your first 2 attempts!

Beautiful ponds! And thanks for the story of the wall collapse etc. My pond also has the natural walls, though the dirt/limestone/sandstone varies in mixture all around the pond.

I have to ask how did your koi in the big lower pond behave when the ones in the upper pond were spawning? Normal, or did they get amped up. I'd have been concerned that the smell would wash down and get them going, and making a big flock spawn in the big pond.

You've got some very good looking prospects in those fry. I can see tell the mother's shine gene showing up in the first batch.

Regarding the "2. 10" Gin Rin Sanke" male, are you talking about the one with the red X through it under the showa? The small one without the red X on the upper left of the males photo looks like a showa to me.

Any idea about how many little ones you have? If it's a couple hundred, you might keep them until they get big enough to see a deformity or they clearly lack any desirable quality or look skinney/scrawny or just won't grow. Then you can learn how the others develop and not risk culling a good one. You have such a mix that it may not be easy to tell how they may develop. Showa tend to look black when young and change drastically for the better at about 1.5"-2.5". Goshiki may take longer, but Orlando can tell you more on those. If you have thousands, you may have to be more picky, to make sure the others have room to grow.

Some common deformities are bodies or tails that are not straight, gills that stick out or are curved so that they don't close properly, crooked mouth off to the side.

I guess you'll probably have a few little ones raising up in your ponds (from the eggs that did not get on the spawning ropes). The adults eat most of the eggs, but there may be some that found refuge between the rocks. [Once I had an accidental flock spawn in my main pond. I netted out as many eggs as I could and dumped them. I let the 20+ adults eat the rest, or so I thought. The next spring, I saw a lone 5" platinum swimming that I had not known about for a year. ]

Hope your good results continue and that you will post updates!

Matt

[SamAxe51]

Major congratulations on successful spawns on your first 2 attempts!

Beautiful ponds! And thanks for the story of the wall collapse etc. My pond also has the natural walls, though the dirt/limestone/sandstone varies in mixture all around the pond.

Thanks & thanks, Matt! The wall collapse wasn't a good thing, but at least it happened while there was a pond crew already there. No emergency calls, no worrying about trapped koi.

I have to ask how did your koi in the big lower pond behave when the ones in the upper pond were spawning? Normal, or did they get amped up. I'd have been concerned that the smell would wash down and get them going, and making a big flock spawn in the big pond.

The koi in the bottom pond did get a little amped up, so I'm sure the smell made it down there. Although, they seemed to be amped up all throughout the month of April. There are a few females in that lower section, and there were several mornings where I'd see foam on the water. So, there were definitely at least a few flock spawnings in the lower pond. On one occasion, I even found eggs caked on the filter brushes in the skimmer. I didn't want any part of that, though. lol

You've got some very good looking prospects in those fry. I can see tell the mother's shine gene showing up in the first batch.

Thanks for saying. I hope so! I don't expect any award winners, I'll settle for cool & interesting looking.

Regarding the "2. 10" Gin Rin Sanke" male, are you talking about the one with the red X through it under the showa? The small one without the red X on the upper left of the males photo looks like a showa to me.

The "red x" ones were put in weeks after the spawnings. The small one is the one I thought was a sanke, but if you say it's a showa... I'll certainly take your word for it. I knew it was one or the other.

Any idea about how many little ones you have? If it's a couple hundred, you might keep them until they get big enough to see a deformity or they clearly lack any desirable quality or look skinney/scrawny or just won't grow. Then you can learn how the others develop and not risk culling a good one. You have such a mix that it may not be easy to tell how they may develop. Showa tend to look black when young and change drastically for the better at about 1.5"-2.5". Goshiki may take longer, but Orlando can tell you more on those. If you have thousands, you may have to be more picky, to make sure the others have room to grow.

Due to the large size of the spawning area, the swift moving water, and the fact that I only used a couple spawning brushes on just the side, I knew I wouldn't have a lot to work with. The first spawning resulted in only around 300 fry. About 4 weeks in, I had an issue where I started losing around a dozen or so a day. When doing water changes, I'd just find them dead on the bottom. Not quite sure why that was happening. Other than the slightly elevated ammonia & nitrate levels that I would occasionally have to deal with, everything else seemed to be in line. After about a week, we turned a corner... and the deaths stopped. I've only lost a few since then. From that first batch, there's about 150 now.

For the 2nd spawning, I didn't get very many eggs. For a while, I wasn't even sure if they were fertilized. I had put this fry tank out in a spot where they could get a little sunlight (the first one was kept in the shade), so by the time the eggs hatched, the tank was starting to grow algae. They were so much easier to take care of. I had daphnia multiplying in there too, which helped. Hardly any noticable deaths, but this small batch only produced about 100 fry.

All in all, around 250 fry now. Yeah, I don't have to do anything drastic yet.

Some common deformities are bodies or tails that are not straight, gills that stick out or are curved so that they don't close properly, crooked mouth off to the side.

I'll be on the look out, but haven't noticed anything crazy yet.

I guess you'll probably have a few little ones raising up in your ponds (from the eggs that did not get on the spawning ropes). The adults eat most of the eggs, but there may be some that found refuge between the rocks. [Once I had an accidental flock spawn in my main pond. I netted out as many eggs as I could and dumped them. I let the 20+ adults eat the rest, or so I thought. The next spring, I saw a lone 5" platinum swimming that I had not known about for a year. ]

I haven't seen any yet, but now that you've said that, I'll go out there in the morning and see one hanging out next to one on the plants. lol

Before the wall collapsed, there were black mollies in the pond. I didn't put them in there, didn't want them in there, but they were there. Those things multiplied like crazy! I was constantly trying to scoop them out and giving them away to local aquarium shops. If you look at that first picture I posted of the collapsed wall, and if you look at the rocks on the other side... you can tell by the whitened rocks on the lower layer, that that's where the water level sat... right at the middle of the two layers. The mollies would hide in between the stones, and the babies would stay safe in the cracks. So, during the rebuild, I was able to remove them all, and them I made sure that the water level now sits just below that bottom layer of rocks. There's still nooks & crannies where wayward koi fry can hide, but there's a lot less now than there were before. I kind of hope there is one, though. It would be a neat surprise.

Hope your good results continue and that you will post updates!

Thanks again! ...and I'll absolutely post updates.

[Noahsnana]

Love how your pond is screened in
Look forward to watch the updates with this spawn

[Orlando]

Sorry am late to the party; Sam I've circled two from the white bucket to help you on your Goshiki selections. If you decide to cull from the Goshiki group look for the black rims on the eyes on the smaller one's, pay attention at the darker base your (ground) color on body and the (hi) red patern the two that I circled that's what you want to keep anything else it's not going to turn into what I have circled hope this helps.

[SamAxe51]

Love how your pond is screened in
Look forward to watch the updates with this spawn

Yes, it certainly helps keep the koi safe from birds. We have several hawks around here, that I always see perched on the trees near the house. We have a lot of owls too. One even dive bombed through the screened enclosure a couple years ago. I sure had a fun time trying to get it out. lol

[SamAxe51]

Sorry am late to the party; Sam I've circled two from the white bucket to help you on your Goshiki selections. If you decide to cull from the Goshiki group look for the black rims on the eyes on the smaller one's, pay attention at the darker base your (ground) color on body and the (hi) red patern the two that I circled that's what you want to keep anything else it's not going to turn into what I have circled hope this helps.

Orlando, it's never a party without you!

Thanks for letting me know what to look for on the Goshiki... definitely helps. This is one part of this process that I haven't been able to learn much about from my research. I'd hate to make a bad decision, so I can use all the experienced insight & advice I can get.

[Matt24]

Yes, it certainly helps keep the koi safe from birds. We have several hawks around here, that I always see perched on the trees near the house. We have a lot of owls too. One even dive bombed through the screened enclosure a couple years ago. I sure had a fun time trying to get it out. lol

Yikes! Well no matter how long you are in this hobby, there always seems to be something new that you've never heard of.

[SamAxe51]

Yikes! Well no matter how long you are in this hobby, there always seems to be something new that you've never heard of.

Yeah, I heard a big crash around 4:00 am... went out, but didn't notice anything unusual. I went out again when the sun came up, and then saw the busted screen & a giant owl perched on the back of a chair. It was a big sucker... at least a foot & a half tall. It didn't get any of the koi, but trying to get the owl out of the enclosure was difficult. Every time I tried to get near it, it would fly off to some other area. I opened up all the doors to the outside, hoping it would find it's way out, but that didn't work. Eventually, later that afternoon, I was able to sneak up on it while it was sleeping. I use my koi net to cover the top of him, then grabbed its back through the net. I walked it to the doorway, and released it outside. It was facing away from me on the ground, but then it did a full 180 degree head turn to look back at me... really freaky! Seconds later, it flew away. lol

[Matt24]

... later that afternoon, I was able to sneak up on it while it was sleeping. I use my koi net to cover the top of him, then grabbed its back through the net ...

Now that's a move fraught with danger!

[Longfin Lover]

Beautiful setting, Sam. Where did you keep all of your large koi during the rebuild? That must have been a tense time.
Marg

[SamAxe51]

Beautiful setting, Sam. Where did you keep all of your large koi during the rebuild? That must have been a tense time.
Marg

Thanks! I set them up in an upscale studio apartment. It was a little cramped, but they made it work.

[SamAxe51]

Not sure if this was a smart move or not... but, about a week ago, I decided to transport all of my fry out of the kiddie pools they were housed in, and into the main pond. However, I didn't exactly let them loose in the pond. I got some crab nets, then wrapped pipe insulation around them so they'd float. So, I went from this...



to this...



With the kiddie pools, I was doing the daily water changes, dealing with ammonia & nitrite spikes, as well as water temperature swings. Since the water quality in my main pond is almost always right on the money, I figured why not just move them there? I'd read somewhere that moving them too soon could stunt their growth (not sure if that's true), or get them eaten by the larger koi, but that doesn't seem to be an issue. The fry are contained in the nets, and the koi aren't really bothering them very much. I just make sure to throw pellets to the other side of the pond to distract the fish, before feeding the fry. That keeps the big koi from trying to get the fry's food. Also, none of the fry have been able to escape the nets, and they seem to be growing much faster now. The ugly fake lilly pads are just there to give them shade if they want it.

Here's the spawn #2 fry after 8 weeks...




Here's the mix of spawn #1 & #2 tobies after 10 & 8 weeks...

[Orlando]

Nice work good progress you can throw full size pellets to the fry and as the water softens them they start eating them.

[SamAxe51]

At four months... a couple random scoops from the net.

[Matt24]

Thanks for posting the update. I see a few kohaku and a couple of showa that are off to good starts.

I wonder what the ones with the black squares on their heads are going to be.

[SamAxe51]

Thanks for posting the update. I see a few kohaku and a couple of showa that are off to good starts.

I wonder what the ones with the black squares on their heads are going to be.

Not having raised fry before, I have no idea what to expect out of those with the black squares either... or really any of them. It'll be interesting & fun to see how they develop.

[Orlando]

Thanks for posting the update. I see a few kohaku and a couple of showa that are off to good starts.

I wonder what the ones with the black squares on their heads are going to be.

Matt, those black squares are chobo sumi from Asagi lineage and in this case comes from the Goshiki.