Swim bladder issue? Bacterial problem, tumor?

[Pbgooch]

I’ve got an 8,000 g pond that’s been up for a few years. A few weeks ago I noticed one fish isolating and typically head up and tail down in the corner of the pond. I assumed swim bladder issue and decided to treat with salt to 0.6 and OA. The fish went back into the big pond several days later and I thought a miracle had occurred. The fish was totally normally acting and eating and swimming normally with the others. It had previously stayed alone and swam vertically along the walls. I did scrape and scope- but found nothing.

Last Wednesday night the fish appeared normal and had been doing well- I thought. On Thursday morning the fish was floating upside down in the pond completely weak- unable to turn upright or swim from the skimmer. No sign of any trauma and no redness. I was totally stumped.

I decided to put back in a QT tank and it was able to stay upright in the QT. I decided to try OA and salt again- 3 days later and the fish had a crazy red tail fin and really red scales along the tail tube. I had been using Safe in the water those 3 days. I sedated and treated the tail with Tricide- the tail now seems to be improving and is much less red- it’s been 3 days since treatment with Tricide.

However, the fish is clearly losing weight, is weak and stays at the surface sucking water now. It still has buoyancy issues. I tried to put back into the big pond but it swims frantically as though it’s got a spine or back issue and will run into the walls. It’s a crazy situation and it’s the only fish that’s been impacted.

I don’t know if it had a bacterial infection that was partially treated originally and came back, I don’t know why the tail and tail suddenly fin went septic days later, and why this fish now stays gulping water at the surface, and if forced to swim, looks like it has a broken back. I have changed the QT water out daily with
Pond water, used safe and kept extra air for the fish, but it’s puzzling.

I know this is the nature of koi sometimes, but was just curious if someone with more experience seems something I don’t..

[Pbgooch]

https://www.facebook.com/604528716/p...ibextid=l2pjGR

Here’s a video of the fish when I tried to put it back into the pond a few days ago- Thanks Ademink for posting this so I could link to it!

[fly4koi]

It's bacterial infection, in order to save this fish, you need a QT setup with Oxolinic Acid at 0.5ppm. Treat the area with iodine or tricideNeo.
If you can, do baytril injection, it's a week long treatment, 5 shots, day 1,2,3,5,7, in addition to the above to speed up the process, otherwise the fish will rot and die.
See my pictures of a yamabuki that I managed to save with similar issue.

Also, please provide water quality parameters.

[Pbgooch]

Thanks for your insight. I have OA and did the 3 day treatment days ago, but it’s been in QT with in medicated water and daily water changes since that time. The most recent action was the Tricide paste on the tail which seems to have helped.

I don’t have Baytril. I am in TN and the vet options are limited. Do you recommend going back to another Tricide treatment now and more OA treatments for an extended period of time. Fish is now in a 100 gallon QT with oxygen.

[fly4koi]

I'm not familiar with this 'Safe' product, if you can provide more information that'll help.

My recommendation is the same, maintain 0.5ppm OA in the QT for continus treatment, get rid of the salt as it doesn't do much, keep the water pristine, watch out of ammonia and nitrite, buffer water slightly with baking soda for KH, monitor water quality daily.
This 0.5ppm is based on my research of what people in Japan do and also confirmed by professors of aqua culture in Taiwan, so while it's different than what's stated on the package, i do believe it's the better method.

Infection can be a secondary issue after parasites, if you can scope the tail for parasites that'll be better, otherwise do a dose of Proform-C and see how it reacts in the QT, potentially consider Fluke-M as well.
It might take a week until you observe the red area starting to go away, you may continue the tricideNeo treatment but I believe with OA in the QT that should do the same thing.
If you can get your water to 70F that'll speed up the healing process, anything below 65F the fish does not heal.

My yamabuki has bent body as well, I believe it's a tumor in the belly and it has problem controlling the swimming bladder, but it survived the infection and I just feed it sinking food from time to time.

[ademink]

I wanted to add that the fish also spits its food out. Safe is dechlorinator/ammonia binder.

[Pbgooch]

Thank you. I will scope later today and also test all my water parameters. Safe is a binder that I’m using in the QT to combat ammonia and nitrite.

Can you confirm the 0.5ppm conversion of OA in grams/100g. I’m seeing some calculations online but just trying to make sure I’m interpreting the conversion correctly- I realize it’s a very small amount but used for a longer period of time it seems. This fish has been at the surface all morning simply sucking in water but doesn’t appear distressed. I’ll post a link of the video in the Facebook feed above. Thanks again fly4koi!

[fly4koi]

Assuming your OA is near pure, than it's about 0.19-0.2 grams of it for 0.5ppm per 100 gal of water, please double check.
Ref: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...:~:text=0.5ppm

Spitting food indicates parasite, specifically flukes, I have a couple fish that just did this recently, 1 dost of Proform-C+Fluke-M seems to have resolved it (still treating).

[ademink]

As you already know, pbgooch, I agree w/ treating for flukes. lol

[fly4koi]

I looked at the video, I would say the fish is having problem breathing that's why it's gapping for air on the surface, this indicates gill problem, likely gill fluke, you need to treat asap.

[Pbgooch]

I looked at the video, I would say the fish is having problem breathing that's why it's gapping for air on the surface, this indicates gill problem, likely gill fluke, you need to treat asap.

Did a water change and found fish now has possible sap or white fluffy growing on the tail. As you suggested I did a scrape and scope and the video is on the link in comments on Facebook. I have never had parasites other than flukes but the tail was full of flukes and something.

I immediately dozed the QT and my main pond with Fluke M. I also have put Microbe Lyft in her tank so she’s getting a broad treatment and flukes. I think you are right that the flukes have taken over after her original issue and it’s just one thing after another.

[Pbgooch]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]616601

Notice tail has growth. Interesting as I did a Tricide paste all over the tail a few days ago and the redness has greatly improved. Hopefully the microbe Lyft will help here.

[fly4koi]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]616601

Notice tail has growth. Interesting as I did a Tricide paste all over the tail a few days ago and the redness has greatly improved. Hopefully the microbe Lyft will help here.

Don't mess with the white stuff, it might just be dead skin cells or body fluid that floods the area to help with the healing. Let it be, I had used PP for my Yamabuki above which helps oxidize the dead cells but PP is a lot of tricky to use and you need to have peroxide ready to neutralize if things go wrong, the dead cells will turn black and fall off the tail, but I don't think it's mandatory, just use OA at 0.5ppm to treat the infection and it should be ok. One thing, you may consider salting your QT at 0.1% to prevent nitrite toxicity.

[Pbgooch]

Good point on possibly dead cells and healing. Yes, have treated the whole pond with Fluke M and the QT with Fluke M and Microbe. I will treat the big pond as well. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I did a water change before dosing the Microbe and Fluke M. I did not add oxolinic acid powder back to the quarantine as I want sure if it was okay to use with the Microbe and the Fluke M in the water now too.

I have salt but I’m using the Seachem Safe right now to bind any ammonia and nitrites.

[ademink]

https://www.facebook.com/ademink/pos...MQkUh6nWFMDJfl

[fly4koi]

Good point on possibly dead cells and healing. Yes, have treated the whole pond with Fluke M and the QT with Fluke M and Microbe. I will treat the big pond as well. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. I did a water change before dosing the Microbe and Fluke M. I did not add oxolinic acid powder back to the quarantine as I want sure if it was okay to use with the Microbe and the Fluke M in the water now too.

I have salt but I’m using the Seachem Safe right now to bind any ammonia and nitrites.

You can wait for a day till the BSDT color to be gone and dose the OA for a week, but I don't think mixing is an issue.
Being able to treat the fish for a longer duration insure that the bacteria is eliminated, my Yamabuki got a round of Baytril during the summer and seemingly recovered, but when temperature drops in fall it came back with a vengeance.
A lot of heating to get the water to 68F when ambient is in the 40s otherwise it wouldn't even heal.

[ademink]

Microbe Lift is a three day regimen...so after the 3rd day.