Help with sick fish and QT tank water quality

[JustJackieG]

Hello, thanks for letting me join. I was on here many moons ago, but hadn't checked in lately. Please bear with me, this may be a rambling post.


I am outside of Chicagoland in NW Indiana. We had sub zero temps. Then a warm spell that melted the pond. That's when I notice what was going on, most of the fish have what I think is Ich, many carp pox, TBD.


Only 2 times in the last 18 years have we had any health issues. I need to know if I'm on the right track with broad spectrum treatments? I bought a microscope, I will see if I can figure it out and post those results tomorrow. I also have a salt meter, in the QT tank it's reading 400, but honestly not sure 400 what!


I need some guidance on trying to get a decent water quality so I don't kill them while trying to save them!


Current population of fish:
20 3" - 7" goldfish; 1 -12" goldfish and 2 Koi new this year, they are about 6" now


I had to scramble to get supplies and work with what I had on hand as the weather was due to freeze over again.

So this is what I did:


January 1st
Pulled all the fish to a 110 Gallon stock tank.

Largest butterfly has yellowish area on mid to high dorsal and one lower fin. I attached picture
Not all fish are affected, but it seemed like the thing to pull all of them.

Added ½” air line and circle diffuser
Treated with Microblift BSDT

Day 2
25% water change (guessing)
2nd treatment with BSDT
Started heating water, temp was right around 50*
Tested water, Am- .25; PH 8.5, Nitrites 0; Phosphate 0
Added dose of live bacteria
Day 3
25% water change, added dose of Prime and 3rd dose of BSDT, water temp around 55-60
Tested Am .25; PH 7.5
Day 4
25% water change, ½ dose of live bacteria, dose of Prime. Water temp hanging in the 50's
First dose of Sabbactisun. At this point I was waiting on fittings for a underwater filter and pump set up.
Day 5
25% water change, water temp 60
Started what I hope can be a biological filter with bell fountain to aid in off gassing.
Am .50, Ph hit 9; 0 Nitrates and Nitrites. Added Prime and Sabbactisun doses
Today
Am .50; Ph 9; 0 everything else.
Started melting salt to add, but have not put it in just yet.

I have one more dose of the live bacteria. I do have powdered bacteria on hand.

We have a well, I did test it out of the tap with the softener by-passed.

Ammonia 0 - .25
Ph 7-7.5
all else is 0
Salt level was bouncing 390-410 of what ever that is reading.


Not that the pond stats have anything to do with keeping these fish alive now but for the record:
Pond is 18 years old
1300 metered in gallons
rocks on first shelf and up
many plants
Built on the Aquascapes design, skimmer box and water fall
3000 gph pump
The water is always crystal clear, but have a heavy debris load from the flora and fauna surrounding.
We will discuss additional bio filtration closer to spring.

[ademink]

Can you explain further why you think they have ich? The photo I can see doesn't look like ich. If they do have carp pox or some other similar viral issue (which is more like what it looks like from what I can see), that cannot be treated with medication and it is likely that you are doing more harm than good right now. That is largely related to temperatures and water quality.

The *absolute lowest* water temperature you should use BSDT and other formalin & malachite green based medications in 50 degrees. Period. There also should be NO salt in the water. You also have a very large fish load in a very small amount of water right now and keeping your water quality good is going to be very, very difficult.

Are you using an ammonia blocker (editing to clarify...are you using it every 48 hrs for the total volume of water to protect against ammonia vs. just water changes). Please do NOT add any more salt, especially b/c you don't know how much you have or what your end goal is. Please do not add any more medications.

I'm not saying all of this to be harsh with you, I just am trying to clearly convey information in hopes that the ship can quickly be turned.

What is your current pond water temperature? I would stop heating the QT until you can figure out if you are even treating a treatable issue. If you keep raising the temperature and getting the fish acclimated to warm water, you will not be able to return them to the pond until the spring.

[JustJackieG]

Thanks for your quick response. I am not taking offense. The reason I came here is because I regard the members here as very knowledgeable.
Some of the fish had white spots. I wasn’t sure what what going on with this pictured one. I thought possibly fin rot. Then someone on FB ( yeah, I know!) mentioned carp pox.

I have not used salt, I have it on hand if that is needed.

Current water temp is 60.

I did use the bsdt for the three days and the water was 50 and above.

I am using prime for the full 100 gallon dose even when I’ve done partial water changes.

I am going to scrap and scope tomorrow and that should hopefully tell the tale.

The overcrowding is a big issue, but to leave them in the pond untreated didn’t seem to be the thing to do either. I’m thinking of getting another 110 gallon tank tomorrow and setting that up and separating the little guys out or trying to see who looks like they have issues.

I still have to figure out how to maintain water quality.

Like I said thanks for your response. This has been driving me crazy all week and I still don’t have a set in stone plan.

[JustJackieG]

I posted a reply last night, but I don't see it here.

I came here because I respect the knowledge here and do not feel you are being harsh. I need help.

To clarify:
I thought initially the fish had Ich because many of them have white spots.
The large goldfish has the yellowish area on dorsal and one lower, I was thinking fin rot, but it was suggested it could be carp pox.

I have not added salt

I cannot it seems, get the temp above 60.

I've use prime at the dose for 100 gallons after the water changes.

I know the tank sizec situation is a recipe for disaster, but leaving them outside didn't seem like the thing to do either.

What can I do to help that? What kind of filtration can I get going that could cycle quickly?
Do I get another tank and reduce the load in the one?

The pond is frozen over again, I don't have a current temp. Cold! At this point it would seem I have the fish inside for the duration, 3 months.
What level of daily water change should I do? 10%, 20% more?

I will come back after I use the microscope today and let you know what I've found out about disease.

Thanks for your help.

Jackie

[RichToyBox]

Salt at 400 on your meter is probably 400ppm, which is 0.04%. That should not be a problem with the BSDT treatment. If and only if you develop nitrite readings then I would look to increase the salt to about 1000ppm. There is no magic bullet to get the filter cycled, just get a big filter for the small amount of water, due to fish loading, I would suggest something advertised as capable of filtering about 1000 gallon pond. More surface area is better. I would move that filter to the main pond in the spring when the fish are moved, as it will maintain the bio bacteria for use in the future. The low pH from the well is common, caused by trapped carbon dioxide, which is readily blown off pushing the pH upward. You didn't state how you are measuring the pH, or what the KH is. If you are using test strips or wide range pH test kit, the colors cannot be discerned close enough to know what the pH actually is. I recommend a pH pen which is relatively inexpensive on Amazon, less than $20, and it will read to the 0.01. The KH test kit should show a KH of well over 80ppm, with no maximum that I am aware of. If less than 80ppm (5 drops) then the pH starts to get unsteady, which stresses the fish and the bio bacteria. pH will be close to 8.3. If the KH is low, add baking soda to raise the KH to about 150ppm (9 drops). If the KH is good and the pH is above 8.5, then that would indicate a low calcium level, and posting good numbers we can help with getting the calcium where it needs to be.

[JustJackieG]

RichToyBox,
I was looking at building a Skippy filter, is that a good remedy? I can get the parts tomorrow and get it going. What do you recommend for bio? I've used plastic curlers and lava rock in the pond. Maybe I'll just order real bio balls or the like.

I haven't been able to get my responses past the moderator to post, I hope you see this one. I did a 50% water change today as the ammonia was climbing and the PH. the water change did the temporary fix.

I haven't used any salt, the 400 was out of the tap.

I am currently treating with the Prime and Sabbactisun.

I will order the PH pen and a KH test.

I did scope 3 of the fish today and did not see anything moving on the slide. I tried 300x, 600x and even the 1200x.

Is it possible the treatments I've done cured them? I even scraped that mass on the dorsal fin of the big goldfish and didn't see anything interesting. I can try to get better pictures of that, only one other white one has blue spots on the forehead, I assume from the bsdt treatment? I scraped that and noted nothing. I'm a novice at that for sure.

So where do I go from here? Pond is froze, we do still have a hole open as there were some babies we could not net out. Their current water is around 60*, do I pull the heater and try to get them back in the pond? Do I set up another fresh tank, split the fish load and start another filter? Do I keep them all in the one tank and hope the bacteria builds and keep doing water changes? I am so confused on what way to go.

I'm open to all suggestions.

Thanks so much.

[fly4koi]

It would be helpful to get more picutres, you need to be careful about post parasite infections. If you can, raise the water temperature above 65F will help the fish immunity and healing speed.

[ademink]

If you are using Prime for the total volume of the tank every 48 hours, the fish are protected from the ammonia. It's super unnerving to see a .50 ammonia level but they are ok. If you are doing daily water changes, you should dose Prime for the amount of water you are replacing if you are not on the "48 hours" day. You don't want to overdose them on Prime. Example: Monday, full dose of prime for total volume....Tuesday, 25% water change and 1/4 of the prime dose....Wednesday, full dose of prime for total volume. Does that make sense?

Ich looks like someone salted your fish with large grains of salt. It's generally fairly even over all of the fish. Is this what you are seeing or are you seeing white spots that look more like melted wax? Besides what you can visually see, were/are the fish acting like something is wrong?

I personally feel like we need to determine if we are treating something treatable...or WHAT we are treating...before a treatment can be determined. Can you provide pics or better info of what we are looking at? Did the "perceived ich" dissipate w/ the BDST treatment or do the fish look the same?

You may be seeing/trying to treat VIRAL issues (ie something like carp pox, which is the name most people use for anything viral that looks similar). These are not treated with medication. They are generally visible with cold water temps and disappear when the water warms again. Crowded conditions and less than ideal water quality can increase the spread. The one photo that I can see doesn't appear to be fin rot but looks like lymphocystitis or some other viral issue.

[ademink]

EDIT: Wanted to add addt'l info that some think that koi can't get lymphocystis and it may be Epitheliocystis. There are dueling schools of thought on this and reports that Epitheliocystis can be treated w/ Acriflavine

[kdh]

EDIT: Wanted to add addt'l info that some think that koi can't get lymphocystis and it may be Epitheliocystis. There are dueling schools of thought on this and reports that Epitheliocystis can be treated w/ Acriflavine

Not some people .Most people.
https://koiorganisationinternational...t-lymphocystis
https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/publication/FA181
https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/10-8-lymphocystis/
https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics...s/lymphocystis

[kdh]

Since it is possible the only problem that we can see is maybe carp pox. I would leave the tank at the temp of the pond. Until further evaluation.

Are they showing any unusual behavior? Fins clamped, flashing, (rubbing on the bottom) isolation, just hanging in the water not moving etc.

If there are no issues but carp pox. Then you could put them back into there home.

Are the problems just with the koi or the gold fish or both?

Do not feed as they well probably want some food as temps rise.

[JustJackieG]

I have not been able to reply to the messages. If this goes through I am reading and forming a game plan based on the suggestions here. Currently the fish are behaving normally and still dealing with water parameters. Built a skippy filter today. I don't want to put the fish back in the pond if at all possible as I feel that water quality is probably not better than the tank. At least the tank I can do the daily water changes. I am considering adding another tank. I've been doing a lot of research to up the bio filtration on the pond based on the debris load from the trees. More later. Thanks to those who took the time to offer suggestions.

[*Ci*]

I have not been able to reply to the messages. If this goes through I am reading and forming a game plan based on the suggestions here. Currently the fish are behaving normally and still dealing with water parameters. Built a skippy filter today. I don't want to put the fish back in the pond if at all possible as I feel that water quality is probably not better than the tank. At least the tank I can do the daily water changes. I am considering adding another tank. I've been doing a lot of research to up the bio filtration on the pond based on the debris load from the trees. More later. Thanks to those who took the time to offer suggestions.

I’m sorry, Jackie. I’m a new moderator and didn’t realize your posts needed approval. I’ve got the thread fixed now, so you can post. Thanks for your patience.