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  • Results 1 to 14 of 14

    Thread: Why is blurred sumi not an issue for showa lovers?

    1. #1
      KoiFan84 is offline Senior Member
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      Why is blurred sumi not an issue for showa lovers?

      Probably going to get plenty of people directly opposed to my opinion, but I just donít get it. Why would you want to have a koi with a bunch of blurred indistinct color? I know some people like to see the development of the sumi over several years but still. If you bought a showa that had great white and sumi, but really patchy beni you would think itís not a high quality koi. The other question this brings up is why have breeders not been able to get uniform sumi like they can get uniform beni.

    2. #2
      *Ci*'s Avatar
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      Not sure what you mean by “blurred” sumi, but there are all levels of quality and the nicest specimens have strong beni and sumi and bright whites.

      Sumi raises and recedes under the skin for various reasons (temperature, gH levels to name a couple), and just because it is receded does not mean that it is not high quality, whereas if beni is patchy and starts to fade it is usually permanent. Maybe that is why having uniform sumi is harder to achieve.
      I’m sure most people who have a showa (or an utsuri) with receded sumi would love to have that sumi come up and look it’s best, but it is an unavoidable waiting game for most koi.

      I have a really nice Omasako Shro Utsuri that had beautiful sumi as a nisai, but in my soft water pond a lot of the sumi receded. I have been toying with the idea of raising gH to see if it comes up again, but have not committed to the idea. He was my most expensive fish, though, and it is tempting to try, as it is controversial wether or not it would help.
      ________________________________________
      Cheers,
      Ci


    3. #3
      Orlando is offline Senior Member
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      Koifan84 are you referring to kage sumi?

    4. #4
      kevins2ooo is offline Senior Member
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      I think you are referring to either kage or developing sumi.

      I believe most enjoy watching the development of sumi on showa and shiro utsuri, whereas you find "finished" showa more appealing.

      It's a conversation about koi that look great today vs koi that will look great in the future.

    5. #5
      Matt24's Avatar
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      From what I have seen, which includes raising showa many times, the sumi often changes a lot as the young koi develops. But the beni much more often keeps pretty much the same pattern as the koi had at 3 months old.

      One other factor that I mentioned recently on another thread: It's easier to breed a nice two color patterned koi than a nice three color patterned koi. I did some shopping for kohaku and showa this summer. I was able to find a few kohaku that looked good to me at reasonable prices. But the comparably priced showa that I found were not anything I would want in my pond. The nicer looking ones were priced much higher than the kohaku.

    6. #6
      kdh is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by *Ci* View Post
      Not sure what you mean by “blurred” sumi, but there are all levels of quality and the nicest specimens have strong beni and sumi and bright whites.

      Sumi raises and recedes under the skin for various reasons (temperature, gH levels to name a couple), and just because it is receded does not mean that it is not high quality, whereas if beni is patchy and starts to fade it is usually permanent. Maybe that is why having uniform sumi is harder to achieve.
      I’m sure most people who have a showa (or an utsuri) with receded sumi would love to have that sumi come up and look it’s best, but it is an unavoidable waiting game for most koi.

      I have a really nice Omasako Shro Utsuri that had beautiful sumi as a nisai, but in my soft water pond a lot of the sumi receded. I have been toying with the idea of raising gH to see if it comes up again, but have not committed to the idea. He was my most expensive fish, though, and it is tempting to try, as it is controversial wether or not it would help.
      https://www.koi-bito.com/forum/forum...-hardness-myth

    7. #7
      *Ci*'s Avatar
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      Thank you for this link - I remember reading this thread a long time ago, but will re-read it again, it is loaded with info from all those experienced koi keepers from way back.
      One thing that stands out, however, is that HenryC was claiming good blacks in soft water, citing 40-60ppm as soft. My gH is zero out of the tap, so even just raising it to his levels might improve my Shiro.
      ________________________________________
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      Ci


    8. #8
      NaturalK is offline Senior Member
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      Does anyone know how to tell if it is Kage Sumi when the showa is young? I'm really interested in one myself.

    9. #9
      stevek is offline Supporting Member
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      I totally agree with you. I also have a hard time looking at a koi with sumi that is " blurred " , with the provision " trust me " on the part of the seller in terms of what that sumi will develop into. I guess it is mostly a case of " finished " versus unfinished, but to pay a lot of money in some cases for a koi that is a big question mark , is for experts who know a lot more than me.
      Almost reminds me of one of the first baby koi I bought at a local pond dealer. I asked him to use his expert judgement and pick the one he thought would develop the best. I thought it was ugly as sin, but what the heck did I know.... A couple years later, it was still ugly as sin, and never went anywhere ! The lesson i learned was that i needed to get a lot smarter and make the decisions myself !

    10. #10
      kdh is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by *Ci* View Post
      Thank you for this link - I remember reading this thread a long time ago, but will re-read it again, it is loaded with info from all those experienced koi keepers from way back.
      One thing that stands out, however, is that HenryC was claiming good blacks in soft water, citing 40-60ppm as soft. My gH is zero out of the tap, so even just raising it to his levels might improve my Shiro.
      Im no expert but I think it still comes down to genetics. High or low ph gh does affect but probably not to the extent that your going to see a huge improvement or deterioration in a good genetic koi. As you know. A 10,000 dollar koi can fail. Age and so many other factors come into play.

    11. #11
      kdh is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by stevek View Post
      I totally agree with you. I also have a hard time looking at a koi with sumi that is " blurred " , with the provision " trust me " on the part of the seller in terms of what that sumi will develop into. I guess it is mostly a case of " finished " versus unfinished, but to pay a lot of money in some cases for a koi that is a big question mark , is for experts who know a lot more than me.
      Almost reminds me of one of the first baby koi I bought at a local pond dealer. I asked him to use his expert judgement and pick the one he thought would develop the best. I thought it was ugly as sin, but what the heck did I know.... A couple years later, it was still ugly as sin, and never went anywhere ! The lesson i learned was that i needed to get a lot smarter and make the decisions myself !
      Its always a roll if the dice and knowledge is power. But don't think it does very much good when dealing with tosai.

      Generally the more money. The better chance of having a nice koi.

    12. #12
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by stevek View Post
      I totally agree with you. I also have a hard time looking at a koi with sumi that is " blurred " , with the provision " trust me " on the part of the seller in terms of what that sumi will develop into. I guess it is mostly a case of " finished " versus unfinished, but to pay a lot of money in some cases for a koi that is a big question mark , is for experts who know a lot more than me.
      Almost reminds me of one of the first baby koi I bought at a local pond dealer. I asked him to use his expert judgement and pick the one he thought would develop the best. I thought it was ugly as sin, but what the heck did I know.... A couple years later, it was still ugly as sin, and never went anywhere ! The lesson i learned was that i needed to get a lot smarter and make the decisions myself !
      Showa are my favorite variety, partly because with 3 colors, almost every one looks different than every other. I have a bunch of "adults" in the 4-14 year old range. Three of those plus a bunch of three year olds came from various back yard showa spawns over the years. While I've seen sumi change a lot during the first year, substantial changes after that have been rare, and those couple have been after several years. I've seen others show pictures of major sumi changes during years 2-4. I just have not seen it happen in my pond.

      Also the sumi on my showa has held up well when keeping the kh normally in the 60-90 range.

    13. #13
      KoiFan84 is offline Senior Member
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      As far as breeding history why does beni change far less than sumi?? Is it just the way koi are, or is it a product of breeding methods over many years? Tough question to answer I guess, but curious about it.

    14. #14
      kevins2ooo is offline Senior Member
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      It is both the way koi are by nature and genetic crossing.

      From a business standpoint, if breeders could develop a variety with forever stable or developing beni (beni does develop but not the same way sumi does, maybe Kanoko?), they would. Every new variety and feature is a money making opportunity, look at Taniguchi Golden Corn for example.

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