I need some help

[emkull]

Hey everyone I have an issue that I need some help or ideas on
I have been a long time lurker on koiphen and honestly every issue I have had I always just do a search and find the answer to it but this one has me stumped.

I recently did a pond up grade added some depth and a seaside aquatics 35 rdf

So I figured I would do the plunge into some nicer fish. My pond is 6 years old with just some garden shop koi in it so over the years with the garden shop fish I have learnt a lot about parasites.

I got 6 tosai from japan a couple weeks ago only quarantined them for a few days used water from my pond for this (don’t have a good system yet)did a scrape on a couple never found anything they were just quarantined. so I just added them to the pond not worried if I had to treat the whole pond anyway.

Week 1 everyone was happy. Started to feed them and my other fish on hikkari wheatgerm all is good pond temp is still only 52 deg here. The kohaku was a little pig I think his eyes are bigger than his belly only fed a couple times during the week. Week 2 the kohaku started to sink tail first then lay on the bottom fins clenched I figured oh great bugs but whatever,I will just figure out what so I started catching all my fish 1 by 1 and doing check ups and I can’t find any bugs but I fed a couple a of times in week 2 and the kohaku would swim up off the bottom to eat. At this point it was the only fish with any problems so I was thinking Maybe a dud..
Towards the end of week 2 wife messaged me at work saying I thought the kohaku was dead laying flat on its side one the bottom she tried to net it not dead it swam away
I got home from work it was laying flat on it’s side on the bottom again but now 2 other fish are on the bottom fins clenched so I thought maybe at the colder water temps maybe eating to much swim bladder issues??
I took the 3 out of the pond brought them in the house got the water temp up to 65deg over a couple days added salt to 0.1% on day 1.brought that up to 0.3% its been there for 3 days haven’t fed them for 4 days if you don’t make them move they just lay off kilter on there sides still now all 3 do it but the kohaku is the worst tried.
feeding peas tonight read this could help if it a digestion issue but they gobble them up as soon as i drop them in there then just spit them out( don’t like peas i guess)
Stopped at the local pet store tonight to see if they have any meds for a bacterial swim bladder maybe??
But guess what I live in Canada and apparently now we can’t just buy fish meds guess its a good thing I haven’t found any parasites.

The other 3 fish that came in the same bag are happy just swimming with the fish I already had

Water parameters are
Kh a month a go was only 1 drop live in a rain forest so this is an issue but my ph doesn’t swing much usually 7.5
I started adding baking soda about a month ago slowly added 4 pounds so far got my ph up to 8.1 and kh to 4 drops

Ammonia is not readable on api drop test
Nitrite is not readable api
Nitrate not readable api
So I can’t see any water problems
Water temp is low 52deg
Pond gallons I am not sure on since I added depth need to salt it to figure that out still

I am wondering these fish flew from japan to Canada were quarantined then They flew on a float plane to me so could the pressure change with all the flying cause issues??

At this point I have 3 happy fish and 3 unhappy fish any one have any ideas on the best plan moving forward?

I do really want to thank the koiphen community for all the information that is on here I have learned alot

[KoiRun]

Maybe they are not getting enough oxygen through their gills. Did you check their gills and gill snip and scope?

[emkull]

I did not do a gill snip just a light scrape on one to see if I could find a fluke and visual inspection the rest gills look healthy.
Today 2 are laying flat on there sides from a distance look dead walk up to the tank they get scared swim around for a few minutes then go back and lay on the bottom.

[icu2]

Welcome to Koiphen but I'm sorry for the troubles that brought you here!

I think you're first instincts were right. Even though you didn't find anything doing the s and s, putting new fish in with
existing ones without much of qt process, even though they've been qt with the dealer, makes it a good bet they brought
something in with them. Clamping and isolating on the bottom point to the same. I've never had peas do anything honestly
but the spitting can be associated with gill flukes. Do they do the same with food, i.e., eat hungrily but then spit the food?

I'm not sure the availability of products like Proform C or Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment (BSDT) but they're made of
Formalin and Malachite Green. Those will treat for many parasites except notably flukes. Flukes can be treated with Fluke M
or Prazi. Hopefully some of our Canadian ponders can weigh in if you're not sure where to find them. F/MG does need water
temp to be above 50*F and salt at a level of below .15%. I usually will do 3 treatments of BSDT on consecutive days with a
10-20% water change between each treatment.

[emkull]

They eat pellets fine no spitting out just gobble them thats why I was thinking swim bladder or digestion problems the 3 that are having issues are the 3 that were eating the most, figured more than there share. With the colder temps..
I just did a snip on the worst ones gills and another scrape and still nothing my first thought was parasite but I have now checked every fish I have some more than once and have found 0.
They swim up eat and then just sink so whatever is going on it is causing loss of buoyancy they will swim around for a bit then as soon as they stop they just sink.

Pet store said metroplex for bacterial swim bladder

I am going to try and order bsdt on amazon.com and some prazi worst case it gets stopped at boarder.

I have access to salt and potassium permanganate I was thinking maybe try a dip. But the other 3 fish that came in the same bag have no issues and I haven’t seen a parasite yet so don’t really see a point.

[coolwon]

Sleeping sickness?

[emkull]

Thanks coolwon. I had never even heard of that one. I just did a google search on that the symptoms do fit. I was already on the path of raising temp and adding salt so I will stay on that route for now. From what I watched on youtube one guy said raise temp to 22deg and salt to .6 .7 anyone every had success doing this?
From what I learned in my 5min crash course on this it does fit with it only affecting a couple fish water temp playing a part hits in a few days. Maybe it was already in my pond and 3 of the new additions were susceptible to it..

[RichToyBox]

I believe that salt at 0.6 or above will kill most if not all parasites, but I also believe that that is the change required, not the level. I live on a river that 10 miles to my west is true fresh water, and 90 miles to my east is ocean water. From one to the other, the water changes salinity slowly, so the same parasites inhabit a large portion of the river. They have developed an osmotic balance that keeps them from being harmed by elevated salinity. I have seen salt dips done where the salt content was closer to 3.0% and within a few minutes the fish would roll over from shock, but recover and be parasite free. I don't recommend the shock but if using salt, make a true difference, not inching it up a little at a time.

Hope you are able to get the BSDT and Prazi.

[SimonW]

I believe that salt at 0.6 or above will kill most if not all parasites, but I also believe that that is the change required, not the level. I live on a river that 10 miles to my west is true fresh water, and 90 miles to my east is ocean water. From one to the other, the water changes salinity slowly, so the same parasites inhabit a large portion of the river. They have developed an osmotic balance that keeps them from being harmed by elevated salinity. I have seen salt dips done where the salt content was closer to 3.0% and within a few minutes the fish would roll over from shock, but recover and be parasite free. I don't recommend the shock but if using salt, make a true difference, not inching it up a little at a time.

Hope you are able to get the BSDT and Prazi.

I can tell from my own experience that sudden increase of salt really kill parasites. I made it from zero to 0.8-0.9% by dumping 50 kg salt directly into the pond, and the koi were directly affected: Slower moving around, some are not even able to keep their body straight up-right. But next day they all became fine. They still flashed for 1-2 weeks afterwards but less and less.

I have also dipped my koi in 10-15 % salt, and just as Richard wrote they directly roll over and fought violently. I usually keep them there for 30 seconds and then in new fresh water, and they all recovered nicely without a trace of problem. But they should not be anesthetized before the salt dip, otherwise the salt treatment will kill them. I have killed some koi in that way, of course unintentionally.

[emkull]

I went and picked up a heater for my hospital tank and have brought the salinity to 0.3% yesterday and am going to 0.6% today. Watched a couple youtube videos and The behaviour I am seeing really fits with sleeping disease.

I do have confirmed parasites now finally. but still not on a koi including the 3 I am having problems with I have 16 koi now counting the 6 I just bought and have scraped and scoped everyone and can’t find anything

When doing my filter upgrade I took the gold fish out of the pond was trying to get rid of them. I put them in my rdf waste water tote that is about 100 gallons meant for garden water storage and forgot about them, so these 4 gold fish have been living in 100gallons of goo for over a month. I did gill snips and scraped each fish in total of 4 fish living in the worst water I can make I found the 3 skin flukes and 1 whitespot.

I have had white spot fluke trichadina in the past and when I have seen fish with the not eating clenched fins gasping for air they have always had multiple parasites on every scrape slide no fish in my pond are showing any symptoms of parasites no flashing at all no clenched fins they are all fine

So is it even worth treating my pond for parasites only finding 4 in a bucket of muck isn’t that surprising even if treated are you ever going to get rid of all of them?

I have ordered prazi so I will see if it makes it here or not.

I needed to figure out my new pond volume so I added 22lbs of salt moved the salinity 0.05% using the calculator that puts my new volume to 5283 gallons. Is the calculator accurate enough to confirm my pond gallons enough to treat or should I add more salt to confirm the size?

[RichToyBox]

I am assuming the salt meter read 0.050% for which the calculator would be close enough for treatment purposes. If it rounded a value of 0.045% or 0.055% to 0.05% then the volume could be anywhere between 4793 and 5858 gallons. Both are within 10% which is close enough for treatment purposes, but doubling the salt and getting a verification would bring any error to 5%.

I think raising the temperature will be highly beneficial.

[emkull]

Thanks rich I will add another 22lbs I have the koi medic pen only goes to the second decimal. I want to know the new volume as close for the future anyway..
fish in the hospital tank are showing big improvement haven’t seen them laying on there sides today there buoyancy seems to be starting to work again got it at 22 deg and salinity at 0.6%

[Craigger7]

Hi, Not sure if it is Swim Bladder disease. Normally fish are not stressed out they just cannot adjust themselves in depth. I have lots of experience with Oranda Goldfish and Swimbladder disease. Peas do work great, but you want to unshell them. koi and goldfish have difficulty processing the hard shell outer core. Also if it is Swim Bladder Disease you want to make it as easy as possible for them on their digestive track. Hense the Peas because it acts like a laxative for koi and goldfish. GL and I hope all goes well

[*Ci*]

Here is a thread with some details on alternative meds in Canada:

https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...anadian-issues

Just curious, where did you get your imported koi from? Hard to find nice fish in our country.