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    Thread: Fences and critters (the ones without wings)

    1. #1
      Jerome is offline Senior Member
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      Fences and critters (the ones without wings)

      So... according to my neighbors, we have foxes, coyotes, minks, raccoons and more. All eager to feast on some unsuspecting kois.

      I am not terribly eager to go for a chain-linked fence, this is rather ugly and I'd feel like the koi pond is in a prison... Local regulations seem to mandate a 4 feet high fence for pools, by the way.

      What approach did you guys take that worked? Add a mesh of sorts over the bottom (2? 3?) feet of fence height, maybe?

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    2. #2
      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
      we have foxes, coyotes, minks, raccoons
      Foxes? We have tons of foxes, they haven't bothered the ponds. Never heard of coyotes bothering fish. Besides, folks keep telling me there are coyotes here on the east coast, but in 25 years, I've never seen - or heard - a single one. We have lots of raccoons, they haven't caused any trouble.

      Luckily, we're too far south for minks. They drive most folks to despair, but some have had success with electric fencing. Others can advise you better on that subject.

      As for critters burrowing under your fence: one good trick is to lay some wire fencing flat on the ground outside your new fence. 12 to 18 inches should be plenty. Peg it down, and cover with soil or mulch. Critters will try to dig right next to the fence, encounter the wire, and give up. Works like a dream.

      Best,

      Bill

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      Jerome is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by One Poet's Garden View Post
      Foxes? We have tons of foxes, they haven't bothered the ponds. Never heard of coyotes bothering fish. Besides, folks keep telling me there are coyotes here on the east coast, but in 25 years, I've never seen - or heard - a single one. We have lots of raccoons, they haven't caused any trouble.
      A neighbor had a sizable outdoors koi pond for a decade, it wasn't terribly well designed to begin with (too narrow, too shallow) and she had every possible critter kill fish... And yes, foxes and coyotes included, according to her. I'll make my koi pond wider and deeper, but I remain wary... We're pretty new to the area, but I saw foxes in our backyard already. I did hear coyotes scream in the general area (upstate NY), plus I've heard them quite often when fishing various lakes and rivers in CT (and seen them a couple of times). They usually stay much farther from human activities than foxes though, so I share some of your skepticism, but anyway, whatever will block foxes and raccoons should block coyotes.

      Quote Originally Posted by One Poet's Garden View Post
      Luckily, we're too far south for minks. They drive most folks to despair, but some have had success with electric fencing. Others can advise you better on that subject.
      Yes, they seem to be the hardest to deter... Hopefully, somebody will volunteer solid advice in this respect.

      Quote Originally Posted by One Poet's Garden View Post
      As for critters burrowing under your fence: one good trick is to lay some wire fencing flat on the ground outside your new fence. 12 to 18 inches should be plenty. Peg it down, and cover with soil or mulch. Critters will try to dig right next to the fence, encounter the wire, and give up. Works like a dream.
      Oh, that's clever! Thank you, exactly the type of advice I was looking for.
      Last edited by Jerome; 03-29-2022 at 02:38 PM.

    4. #4
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      to keep all critters from going under your fence either buy some cheap wire fence or craig's list search for some free used chainlink fence.
      You do not have to bury it. Laying it flat is good enough. in weeks it will be beneath the grass. in a year it will be beneath the soil.
      If possible slide it under the fence and around the fence posts a bit so that it stops animals from going in or out.

      note: If you have a dog that is digging out under the fence chicken wire might do the job. It will only last a year or two in the ground, but most dogs give up and don't try after being unsuccessful.
      "Those aren't poodles. They're Dobermans with afros."

    5. #5
      Jerome is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by lukef View Post
      to keep all critters from going under your fence either buy some cheap wire fence or craig's list search for some free used chainlink fence.
      You do not have to bury it. Laying it flat is good enough. in weeks it will be beneath the grass. in a year it will be beneath the soil.
      If possible slide it under the fence and around the fence posts a bit so that it stops animals from going in or out.
      Ok, back to this topic as my pond build is FINALLY proceeding. And I do need to deter all sorts of critters.

      Great advice, thank you. So I am thinking to:
      1) Have a fence (4 feet and a half high) all around the backyard -pond included-, with the bottom three vertical feet covered with a metallic mesh (one square inch openings).
      2) The mesh will extend one more foot in the ground, vertically.
      3) Then add three feet wide of cheap chainlink fence on the ground (horizontally) and cover it with an inch of soil (since a lot of soil is moving around in my backyard as we speak anyway, cf. excavation!).

      Am I making sense?
      Last edited by Jerome; 09-12-2022 at 01:57 PM.

    6. #6
      *Ci*'s Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jerome View Post
      So... according to my neighbors, we have foxes, coyotes, minks, raccoons and more. All eager to feast on some unsuspecting kois.
      Every one of these animals will easily climb any fence. Foxes and coyotes are the least likely to bother the fish. Racoons will not swim after fish, only wade into shallow parts to catch them, so if you have straight sides and some depth to the pond it will help. Mink are the most dangerous and the hardest to keep at bay (as are otters, if you have them). They are excellent swimmers and fishers. Also very hard to use electric fence for them as they are small enough to go under and can jump, too, so you would need very close spacing on your hot wires.
      Sorry, this sounds so disheartening, but predators are definitely a bane to koi keepers and many leave the hobby completely after having established ponds decimated by the varmints.
      I can advise you on electric fencing, but be warned … if you think chain link feels like a koi “prison” the aesthetic of electric fencing will be that tenfold! I named my first pond “Alcatraz” for this reason, lol!
      ________________________________________
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      Ci


    7. #7
      Jerome is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by *Ci* View Post
      Every one of these animals will easily climb any fence. Foxes and coyotes are the least likely to bother the fish. Racoons will not swim after fish, only wade into shallow parts to catch them, so if you have straight sides and some depth to the pond it will help. Mink are the most dangerous and the hardest to keep at bay (as are otters, if you have them). [...]
      In my previous home, raccoons were making a mess climbing on insect screens and nearby elms. So yeah, I hear you, those guys can climb and the mesh blocking smaller rodents might be counter-productive by helping raccoons to climb... I am a little at loss on how to prevent this specific situation at the fence level. I really don't want to put an electric fence (or at least not until I absolutely have to). Or to have some sort of horizontally protruding bars or mesh near the top of the fence (that would be ugly and very unfriendly for our neighbors!).

      But yes, you're right, I'll have a second level of defense, there will be no shallow area in the pond. Water will go 4 feet deep nearly straight away and then taper down to 7 feet in the middle. If needs be, I can lower the water level (plan of record is 6" from top of the 18" perimeter wall where we can sit and feed them) to make it make more difficult for raccoons to try to grab an unsuspecting koi swimming near the surface.

      I have yet to see a raccoon where we live now, but I wouldn't be surprised. I don't think we have otters around, but yes, minks are present. And my neighbor has plenty of horror stories with critters and predators (she had a shallow pond to begin with, this certainly didn't help! She even had big water snakes coming in at some point!). Any idea to refine my tentative plan would be welcome.
      Last edited by Jerome; 09-13-2022 at 11:21 AM.

    8. #8
      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      There is some virtue to a fence, even though so many critters climb. Sounds silly to say, but it gives an outside and an inside. Some of those critters like a fast getaway, others will get more wary in 'civilized' areas. I have fences around my ponds, and the dogs - two mini australians, very lively - are able to patrol the area. Doesn't hurt that they mark it as well.

      Anyway, every situation is different, and it's best to think of creative solutions. I had a heron problem - a bad one. Mr. Great Blue Heron would perch in a dead tree, waiting for me and the dogs to not be in the garden. Then he'd fly down for a bit of fishing.

      Now remember, some of those critters like a fast getaway. Herons are like that. They have a six foot wingspan. So I strung Tibetan prayer flags at three foot intervals. Mr. Heron is not fond of the idea of the dogs coming out and surprising him when he'd have to walk quite a ways before taking off. No sir, that is not to his taste:

      .

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      .

      Not everyone will like that look. For myself, I'd have them - although not as many - even if I didn't have a problem with herons. They're good reminders of impermanence. What I'm saying is that it's best to come up with creative solutions for your particular situation.

      Good luck!

      Best,

      Bill

    9. #9
      Jerome is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by *Ci* View Post
      Every one of these animals will easily climb any fence. Foxes and coyotes are the least likely to bother the fish. Raccoons will not swim after fish, only wade into shallow parts to catch them, so if you have straight sides and some depth to the pond it will help. Mink are the most dangerous and the hardest to keep at bay (as are otters, if you have them). They are excellent swimmers and fishers. Also very hard to use electric fence for them as they are small enough to go under and can jump, too, so you would need very close spacing on your hot wires. [..]
      The more I read, the more I see that you were right on point. Thank you for the wake-up call.

      Barring a prison-like fence (with one foot of solid mesh protruding horizontally at the top? Urg, no way!), both raccoons and minks might not be deterred much by my fence, given their climbing abilities. And then it seems that the most practical answer is a few electric wires around the bottom part of the fence. And since our neighbors have kids and pets, plus I can be a bit absent-minded at times, maybe put this on a timer to only activate from dusk to dawn. Can't say I am very enthused by this idea though... Will take time to read more about it, this should be easy to add after the rest of the construction.
      Last edited by Jerome; 09-14-2022 at 07:08 PM.

    10. #10
      *Ci*'s Avatar
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      Again, I think the mink are your main problem. If you are going to fence the pond with a mesh that mink can’t squeeze through (1” or less) then you could just put a ground wire + a hot wire on the top edge (the animal has to either be standing on the earth or touching a ground wire at the same time as the hot wire to feel the shock). If you want to keep them from going through, say, chainlink, then you would need multiple wires along the bottom at about, maybe, every 2” for at least 18” high, I would think. That is gambling that the creature wouldn’t just leap up and past the wires. They can sense the electric current and avoid it - depends on how motivated they are to eat. They can also sense your pond water and fish even though the fence might be set quite aways back from it. You would need to keep the wires clear of all plant growth, grass and weeds.

      I use a timer for the fence to come on at dusk and off at dawn. I am taking the chance that animals won’t come in the day, but I am retired and home most often and I have dogs. My fence charger is 10,000v, strong enough to deter otters, and it is very painful to touch (believe me, I know), so I do not risk it being on when company or grandkids are over.
      ________________________________________
      Cheers,
      Ci


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