Jumping and skin issues..

[GSD]

Hello my fishie friends

Have 2 issues going on. Got 4 small koi from NDK late summer/early fall, so they went into the quarantine stock tank with our shubunkin. We cant seem to figure out whats going on with them. Its always the same 2 koi jumping and flashing. Tried over n over with aquacura at 3x the normal dose. Just recently we bought fluke m, seemed good for a couple weeks. Then again more jumping so again we did 3 days of terminate and then added the fluke m on the last day, which was Monday. 2 are still jumping, one just jumped out as im typing this, i was sitting next to them when it happened. (Definitely covering it when Im not right here)

The other issue is my shubunkin, 2 of the small koi have been chasing her and nipping her tail. Her tail looks like hell and it looks like a fungus, but could be bacterial or excess slime coat? I have no clue. Just know it looks like her skin is peeling, mainly on the fins but a little on the body. Shes in a hospital tank now with another treatment of terminate. Hope that was the right choice?

Anyway, i dont know what to do about the flashing and jumping, seems like its more jumping than flashing these days. All are eating, only offering small random meals.

what I have on hand is, fluke m, aquacura, melafix, pimafix, salt, dimilin, PP and terminate.

GH- 14
KH- 6
PH- 8
Ammonia- 0
Nitrate-40-60 (those 2 reds are hard for me to tell apart)
Nitrite- 0

Water temp 58⁰ degrees (they're in my unheated basement with a 100w heater in 110g lol but it helps) shubunkins 20g hospital tank is also in our basement at 63⁰ degrees, raising slowly with a 100w heater, its a preset one but in this cold basement theres no way it will boost it to 78⁰)

Any advice would be REALLY appreciated!!! Ty!!!

[GSD]

Ok so the shubunkin is definitely flashing..

Dont know what to treat first.. her skin or flashing..

[RichToyBox]

From the sounds of it, you have tried just about everything. The only thing that I can think of is that it is gill flukes. Gill flukes are egg layers, so you have to treat to kill both the adult and the egg, but the egg isn't treatable until it hatches. As such, they are very hard to get rid of, and it cannot be accomplished without multiple treatments at a frequency that will get the adults on the first treatment, and then some of the hatchlings before they are able to lay eggs and then the rest of the hatchlings that had not emerged with the first dose. I would recommend treatment with the Fluke M every 3 days for 4 or 5 treatments at your temperature.

As for the shubunkin, I think you need to do the same treatment because it took some to the new home. I would also get an antibiotic for the wounds. They have some for aquarium use, but being pond centered, I don't know which or how.

[GSD]

Hi Rich, ty for the advice, i was going by the package, says wait 7 days between treatments. But i definitely will do it every 3 days and will probably do 5 maybe 6 treatments. I will also treat the shubunkin but with the terminate in the water, i dont know if I can mix the 2 together over and over. I know u can treat for flukes on the last day of the terminate but didnt know if it can be an on-going thing. Also, i know with prazi, you can make the dosing stronger. Is that recommended for the fluke m?

I'll have to do some research for the shubunkin, in her 20g im sure i can find something made for aquariums, just not sure which one would be any good.

What do you think the shubunkin has?

And, again.. thank you so much for the reply!!

[RichToyBox]

There is no reason the two treatments cannot be done at the same time. The main reason for doing the fluke treatment with the last treatment of Terminate is that you should be doing a 25% water change before each dose of Terminate, but you really want the fluke treatment will stay active longer than one day and you don't want to waste it with the water changes. I would follow label instructions on dosages for the Fluke M, since doubling the frequency. I have not used it and don't know for sure if it is like Prazi in that the only thing a double dose will harm is the pocketbook.

As for the shubunkin, I suggested some form of antibiotic for aquariums, as one the size container is just that, and two, the Terminate will take care of fungus and parasites but won't do anything for bacterial infections. I didn't see any evidence of bacterial infection but you mentioned it must be one or the other, so just shotgun. Probably not needed. The fin shredding and nipping could be just an issue with the fish, but is often a sign of weakness of the one being attacked. Give rest and get the antibiotic later if healing of the shredding shows signs of reddening.

[GSD]

So the shubunkin is still hanging on, shes now in a 10 day treatment of Nitrofurazone (fingers crossed)

But the main issue is, the koi are STILL jumping/flashing. Id imagine the fluke treatments would have helped by now if that were the case. I even upped the salt to about .6
(Yes i added it slowly) and no changes.

Should i do water changes and try terminate again? I really am afraid of using pp but it seems i might have to. I dont even have a scale that would weigh that little tiny amount. We ordered these fish last summer/fall and there's always one or 2 that will jump and flash. So they never made it to the outdoor pond.

Im truly at whits end with not knowing what to do. I dont have a microscope to scrape and wouldn't know how to look even if i did. Their water temp is about 55 not sure if that helps with some kind of treatment idea if someone has one?

Ty

[RichToyBox]

If you have done the fluke treatments every few days for multiple treatments, then I would say it is not flukes. Most of the other parasites should have been taken care of with 0.6% salt, but adding it slowly, to me, gives some of these parasites a chance to adapt to high salt levels. My barber has salt water aquaria and has ich attacking on occasion, and that salt level is 35ppt (3.5%) or almost 6 times the level you have in your tank. I would recommend a 50% water change, matching temperature, pH and KH, each day for 4 days to get rid of most of the salt, and then treat with the formalin/malachite green treatment, three treatments, with a 25% water change before each treatment.

Also, I would make sure that the KH was well over 6 drops (100ppm) so the pH is stable.

[GSD]

Hi Rich, thank yoy for your fast reply!!! I actually just finished a 50% water change and my one fish has jumped fully out of the water 2x back to back.

My water is
KH- 6
GH- 19
PH- 8.2
Ammonia- 0
Nitrites- 0
Nitrate- 40 to 60.. probably closer to 60 but all of the water tests were b4 the water change so its probably lower now

I'll add some baking soda slowly to up the kh. I'll do a table spoon every 6 to 8 hours. And test obviously in between.

This is crazy, i cant get them to stop flashing/jumping. And when the screen is over them it definitely freaks them out which adds more stress. So when i sit down here i remove it. But i definitely will do the terminate 3x and do water changes in between.

And i did just rinse my filter flosses, replaced one piece. In a week or so I'll replace the other.

But on a positive note, i truly think the Nitrofurazone is helping my shubunkin!!!! She seems to be swimming around more!!! And after I know shes in the clear, I'll do the same treatments to her also. But she only flashes once in a blue moon so right now the focus is on her bacterial issue.

If i did their water change just now, could i do another 50% in the morning, another 50% tomorrow night and then Saturday morning the 4th water change and terminate? Or can i do some water changes faster? They're really bugging out!!!

Again, thank you thank you THANK YOU!!!! I truly appreciate your help and trust you fully with your advice!!!

[icu2]

Have you ever tested your source water that you do water changes with?
It's a good thing to do every once in a while to know what you're adding to the pond. Sometimes it
can change. The remark about the fish jumping during a water change made me wonder...

[GSD]

Yes actually, the tap water is..
Kh 6 drops
Gh 12 drops
Ph 7.4
Ammonia not quite 0 and not quite .25 (but i always use safe when i do water changes)
Nitrite 0
Nitrate about 5

The one fish that i was talking about is one of the 2 the main ones who has been showing the issues this whole time, just getting worse FAST. Thought for sure the salt was gonna help, whatever the issue is, the salt just gave more time for it to get worse..

[GSD]

PS
My shubunkin ate tonight!!! Yay!!!!

[RichToyBox]

As long as the temperature, and pH are the same between the new and old waters, there is no reason that 100% water changes cannot be done. The main reason to limit amount and frequency is to cause the least stress with the water changes.

[GSD]

Sounds good!!! Ty!!!!