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    Thread: Pinkish white koi

    1. #1
      Koifancinci is offline Junior Member
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      Pinkish white koi

      Hi - I have a 2000 gallon pond with 5 adult koi and about 5 fry. The pond is in the shade and does not get direct sunlight. It has a waterfall and bog, and a large aerator with a Pondmaster Clearguard pressurized pump. Fish are active and eating normally - KH is about 6 drops and pH is 7.6, high range pH is 7.8/8, ammonia is 0, nitrite is 0 and nitrate is 0-5. All but one of the fish were spawned in the pond and the KH has never bothered them.

      I changed about 20% of the water last weekend and a few days later thought my large white koi had a slightly pink dorsal fin but thought I could have been imagining it. Today it seems more pink and I think it could be a parasite problem but don't know. I don't have a microscope and have never examined them out of the water. They have been healthy with no problems over the last 8 years and I have never added anything to the water including salt or baking soda.

      I've attached a photo of the fish in question and am seeking advice about what to do - wondering if I should try adding salt. I don't have a quarantine tank but do have a bubbler and large rubbermaid tote in case quarantine is suggested, but think perhaps I should treat the whole pond.

      Thanks for the help.
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    2. #2
      nmtsaki's Avatar
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      You have the same type of water i do, near Detroit. pH about seven or Ďwhateverí and the KH6 I would still raise that KH with baking soda, it is borderline; I like to keep mine about 10 drops with the liquid drop test kit by API. One of the reasons we like to keep the KH higher, is because of something called a pH crash. Years ago before I learned about KH and pH crashes, I thought that was bull cookies, until I lost a couple of aquariums of fish. My pH was fine! However with a pH crash it can change overnight from 7.5 to 4 without warning. And that is with a KH of six and regular water changes. Just happened approximately two years after the aquarium was established, fish were fine one day, and the next all dead.. That being said about the same time is when I got into koi keeping and really delved into the KH; I firmly believe that it is one of the most important parameters of the pond water chemistry along with ammonia nitrIte. If you keep the KH constant, you do not have to measure pH, because it will be stable at ~ 8.2. I did a lot of research on KH and pH, when I helped to rewrite the water quality portion of the WWKCís WQ course, in fact, I added that section since they didnít have one at the time. And since you are relatively close to me, I am assuming you are getting a lot of rain like we are, and that will also change the KH quickly.

      If your other parameters are zero for ammonia, zero for nitrIte, and that slight range for nitrate, then it might just be a natural coloration of the fish that is starting to peek through, if you could pull him and look at him to make sure thereís no sepsis going on that would be a good thing While you have him pulled, check for gills being on the dark brown side, instead of a healthy bright red; there is a possibility of guilt flukes or other parasites that are giving the fish issues. You can always do a fecal culture and look at it underneath a microscope or a skin and Gail scrape and also look at that on the microscope to check for parasites.

      I would not add salt now, since we will be going into winter soon and you will have to clear that out before winter starts because of what is called super cooling where by the salt keeps the water temperature cooler than it actually is. This actually causes a lot of fish stuff during the winter unless you have a covered.

      Salt is really only for nitrIte issues, unless you are thinking of salting for parasites. You also donít really want to do a shotgun treatment without knowing what you have, which is why I recommended looking at skin, gills, and fecal.

      I notice you have an aerator- how many stones, a d is the bubbling vigorous? Does the fish is question hang out by the bubbler? What type of air stones and hose do you have? I found. That by switching up my airline to a heavy duty rubberized tubing, the air flow was phenomenal, it greatly increased it to the 5 air stones I had (I always use sweet water stones by Pentair.

      I apologize if there are any typos, I am doing this on my phone outside in the sunlight in my backyard. If you have any questions just ask, and I will check back in an hour or so. I hope some of my suggestions help. And as for the baking soda I would add a cup for now and then recheck the KH 24 hours

      Nancy







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    3. #3
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      I will try baking soda. You think 1 cup is good? The aerator has 2 stones - lots of bubbles.

    4. #4
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      One issue not addressed by Nancy is the issue of water treatment. Is the water well water, city/municipal water? Is it treated with chlorine or chloramine? Do you add any treatment to address the chlorine/chloramine?

      Pinking is usually associated with some form of skin irritant, and those fall under the category of parasites or the treatments for parasites or water (pH stability or chlorine/chloramine).


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    5. #5
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      It's city water and is treated with a stress coat/dechlorinator. I am thinking it is a parasite of some kind. Thinking salt treatment in a separate quarantine tank may be the way to go but I have never had to do this before. It's very nerve wracking.
      Last edited by Koifancinci; 09-10-2021 at 11:36 PM.

    6. #6
      nmtsaki's Avatar
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      1 cup is plenty. Are you actually using stress coat? That can coat the gills and irritate the fish also. May want to water change it out. The only thing I put in my pond (besides baking soda) is SAFE by Seachem. It dechlorinates, also treats for chloramine, if the city water changes to that without telling its consumers, it also binds ammonia, nitrIte, nitrAte, heavy metals. I have a 2000 gallon pond also, and I cut the 4 kg size which lasts me a couple of years. If I am having water quality issues, I’ll add some, in addition to using as my general dechlorinator. One other thing that it does NOT do, is affect the pH as some other additives do. I did a mini experiment here a long time ago, and it actually does all it claims to do, pretty amazing stuff. Expensive, but my fish are worth it. They’re also spoiled.







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    7. #7
      nmtsaki's Avatar
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      Also, if you think it’s a parasite, ready the stickies at the beginning of the emergency forum (at top). Salt does not treat everything; best to try to figure out what you have before salting the fish. The sticky also has different treatment regimens for the different parasites. You can post in the main forum to see if there is anyone nearby that has a microscope and could come over and do a scrape and scope. Usually title it “anyone in the Cincinnati area” yada yada…….







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      Once I had a small kohaku with very pinkish white parts, and under microscope I saw massive amount of fluke, so much that I got geese skin.

    9. #9
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      Ugh!







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    10. #10
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      I use Smartpond chlorine remover plus conditioner - no separate stress coat added. I will order the SAFE by Seachem you recommended.

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      Thanks so much, Nancy. I've posted in the main forum re: scoping/scraping. I'm getting ready to add the baking soda and want to be sure that it's okay to add it all at once. Also wanted to let you know that I can see some tiny black spots on a few of the koi - I've read this could be a sign of skin flukes. I want to know exactly what type of parasite they have but can it hurt in the meantime to start treating for flukes just in case? My pond supply store recommends a broad spectrum treatment - Microbe-Lift Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment with Malachite Green & Formalin. I saw in the sticky that Kusuri Fluke-M is recommended but I would have to order that and wait for delivery - it's not carried locally. Thanks in advance for your advice.

    12. #12
      nmtsaki's Avatar
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      Yes, you can add all the Baking soda all at once for that size pond; if you need to add more, so it in one cup increments. KH is used up by the filter and bacteria, so weekly checking of KH is recommended, adding more baking soda as appropriate. I’m pretty sure if you treat with the above mentioned remedies, salt should not be present, so it’s a good idea to double check that. Black spots can be a sign of high ammonia, color coming through, among other things also. Hopefully someone will help you with the scrape and scope







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      I think dogs are the most amazing creatures; they give unconditional love. For me they are the role model for being alive. -- Gilda Radner

      Yesterday I was a dog. Today I'm a dog. Tomorrow I'll probably still be a dog. Sigh! There's so little hope for advancement. -- Snoopy

    13. #13
      icu2's Avatar
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      Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment (BSDT) says it can be used with salt levels below .15%. But if you haven't
      added any, I wouldn't. If you think it's parasites and don't have a specific one you're treating for you can do a
      "shot gun" treatment. Clean your filters and do a good water change (25% or so) Turn off any UV's. You want the water
      as clean as possible to have the greatest effect from the BSDT. Then treat with the recommended amount
      (100ml per 1000 gallons of water). Leave it for 24 hours, then do another water change and treat again with the same.
      Do this for 3 days in a row. On the 3rd day, along with the BSDT, also add Fluke M or Prazi, whichever you prefer at the
      recommended dose. Then leave the BSDT and Fluke M/Prazi for 7 days with no water changes. After 7 days you can
      do another water change and plug in the UV. The UV will neutralize the Fluke M or Prazi and the BSDT should also be
      long used up so sometimes I don't even do the last water change... just depends on the water. Gill flukes will take another
      treatment of the Fluke M or Prazi to kill any eggs that hatch so I usually wait 7-10 days after the first treatment and
      treat again. Remember to turn off the UV again. You might even need to treat with the BSDT again too... but I'd just watch
      after the first treatment and go from there.

      Hope that helps, good luck with them!
      --Steve
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      This was super helpful. Per Nancy's advice, I have not added salt or done a bath. The only thing I've added is a cup of baking soda to adjust the KH. I think I am going with the shotgun approach and ordered FlukeM - it was supposed to be shipped today via Priority. Hope it's not a mistake to wait. I also read ProForm-C works well in conjunction with FlukeM so am getting that too. Recommended treatment is:

      Day #1 FlukeM with Proform-C.
      Day #4 Proform-C only.
      Day #7 FlukeM with Proform-C.
      Day #10 Proform-C only

      Does this sound right to you? Hope to start treatment as soon as FlukeM gets here unless you recommend starting sooner with BSDT. Thanks again!

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      icu2's Avatar
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      Proform C and BSDT are basically the same so either should do the job and the dosing would be the same.

      My shotgun schedule goes something like this:

      Clean filters and unplug UV
      Day 1: Water change and dose with Proform C or BSDT
      Day 2: Water change and dose with Proform C or BSDT again
      Day 3: Water change and dose with Proform C or BSDT again and also dose with Fluke M or Prazi
      Day 4: Do nothing but monitor fish
      Day 5: Same
      Day 6: Same
      Day 7: Same
      Day 8: Same
      Day 9: Same
      Day 10: Plug UV in and water change.
      Day 11-18: Monitor
      Day 19: If no flashing and all look happy, unplug UV and dose with Fluke M or Prazi
      (If flashing, clamping fins, twitching, etc. I restart at day 1 schedule)
      Day 20-25: Monitor
      Day 26: Water change and plug UV back in
      Retreat with Proform C or BSDT if flashing, fin twitching or clamping or other signals of parasites reoccur.
      --Steve
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      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      A perhaps helpful comment. If Praziquantel is to be used, be aware it is very difficult to get the Praziquantel to dissolve in water. The useful trick is to dissolve it in the BSDT concentrate dose to be added, and dose them together. Anyway, that is the way I use Praziquantel.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

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      Thanks so much for the tip! Iím planning to use Fluke-M and it doesnít look like that ingredient is in it. I really appreciate the information and will keep a note in my file in case I do use it at some point.
      Last edited by Koifancinci; 09-14-2021 at 02:11 PM.

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      Cleaned my filter and did a water change last night - started with Proform C today. Have two large floor airstones and the waterfall going for aeration. Fish swam around a little more than normal at first but no breaching/gasping. They are quiet and calm now. Monitoring them with a standby tote of water drawn off the water change yesterday just in case one needs to be netted out. Consulted with my pond installer before dosing to double check volume - he said he thought it was about 2000 gallons. Split pond into geometric zones and calculated average size and depth to confirm and it seems about right. Went a shade under Proform C recommended dosage for a 2000 gallon pond taking into account that some slides are sloped. The next time I expand/build I will use someone else - this guy should have known/measured the exact volume. Too late to calculate volume using salt (there is none in the pond at all).

      Had a question about dechlorinator - I am using Seachem Prime. Have heard mixed things about it used in conjunction with Proform C - seems like it might inhibit effectiveness. As this is a shotgun treatment for suspected flukes maybe it's not a big deal. Ultimate dechlorinator was referenced in another thread - not sure I can find it locally. Also saw water changes with Proform C might not be necessary if water parameters are good - tested this morning and KH is 8 drops, ammonia 0 and nitrite 0.

      Thanks in advance for the help.
      Last edited by Koifancinci; 09-14-2021 at 02:51 PM.

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      nmtsaki's Avatar
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      Ultimate is very similar to Prime. I have a document (somewhere!) that compares dechlorinators. If I ever find it, I will share. Has to be on a thumb drive somewhere







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    20. #20
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Koifancinci View Post

      Had a question about dechlorinator - I am using Seachem Prime. Have heard mixed things about it used in conjunction with Proform C - seems like it might inhibit effectiveness. As this is a shotgun treatment for suspected flukes maybe it's not a big deal. Ultimate dechlorinator was referenced in another thread - not sure I can find it locally. Also saw water changes with Proform C might not be necessary if water parameters are good - tested this morning and KH is 8 drops, ammonia 0 and nitrite 0.

      Thanks in advance for the help.
      I've read it's conditioners with sulfite that's the issue but if you don't overdose and calculate close to the amount you need, the chlorine will use up all
      the sulfite and won't effect the BSDT/Proform C treatment. I would do like you said and just skip the water changes. I have well water but I don't bother
      with the water changes when I use it either.

      You probably read this but I'll put the link for any others reading along to find the info:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...lorine-binders
      --Steve
      ..WWKC Treasurer


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