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    Thread: Chinese demand driving up prices?

    1. #1
      KoiFan84 is offline Senior Member
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      Chinese demand driving up prices?

      I don't know exactly to what extent this is true, but you hear about the Chinese being a definite reason why koi prices have climbed so high. I know that the amount of Chinese people who are multimillionaires and even billionaires has really gone up in the past 10 or 15 years due to the country's economic gains. Dealers would have the best perspective on this I suppose. It's kind of a shame when billionaires are filling giant ponds with $50K koi mainly because it's a status symbol. Maybe I'm off base with this, but I've heard this idea alluded to multiple times...

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      Orlando is offline Senior Member
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      Seeing that your in the market for 1k dollar koi I don't see where a buyer in the 50k dollar market would affect you, what am I missing.

    3. #3
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      Good point. It's like lamenting that the price of a Ferrari is limiting your ability to buy a Toyota.

    4. #4
      KoiFan84 is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      Good point. It's like lamenting that the price of a Ferrari is limiting your ability to buy a Toyota.
      No. A koi that was 42K is now 50K. A koi that was 36K is now 42K all the way down to was $200 is now $350. Clever retorts though fellas. I guess you never took economics.

    5. #5
      KoiFan84 is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      Good point. It's like lamenting that the price of a Ferrari is limiting your ability to buy a Toyota.
      I guess so.
      Last edited by KoiFan84; 10-08-2021 at 01:07 PM.

    6. #6
      Paul Sabucchi is offline Senior Member
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      I am not entirely convinced that it is demand in China that is driving up prices at the "reasonable" end of the market. There may be many new billionaires in China who can afford $$$$ koi but the bulk of the "middle class" population does not have any outside space for a pond. They may be increasing noticeably the demand for wild discus or even arowana that can be kept in a tank. On the other hand I know that retailers here in Italy have struggled a lot to have fish shipped from Japan (so less supply) and more often than not had to pay a LOT more to have them shipped by Emirates Airways via Dubai (I have seen the shipping boxes and manifests) rather than the usual air freight companies they used before all the Covid disruption.
      Maybe just like with silicon chips demand has increased because of people spending more time at home and as the devil makes work for idle fingers they decided to start keeping koi, I am guilty as charged!
      Last edited by Paul Sabucchi; 09-11-2021 at 06:40 AM.

    7. #7
      batman is offline Senior Member
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      Supply and demand issue across all price points. The quality on the lower priced (US sales) koi has definitely sank and prices are up. Generally speaking the ability to have a fish pond and have koi has risen in multiple Asian countries.
      The real Batman wears polyester! Don't be fooled by the plastic imposter.

    8. #8
      stephen's Avatar
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      Don't Focus on Any One Country

      Quote Originally Posted by KoiFan84 View Post
      I don't know exactly to what extent this is true, but you hear about the Chinese being a definite reason why koi prices have climbed so high. I know that the amount of Chinese people who are multimillionaires and even billionaires has really gone up in the past 10 or 15 years due to the country's economic gains. Dealers would have the best perspective on this I suppose. It's kind of a shame when billionaires are filling giant ponds with $50K koi mainly because it's a status symbol. Maybe I'm off base with this, but I've heard this idea alluded to multiple times...
      Many countries have many millionaires and billionaires and they are rapidly increasing! Good for them Egos keep the hobby working The breeders are not surviving because of the average hobbyist that buy their culls. It is the whales that are keeping it going!

      As others have said - simple supply and demand - just like lumber,etc.

      Remember that $50,000 to someone may be like $5 to others. But these idiots allow you to enjoy the hobby.

      Here is a picture of "The Sarge" fish that I purchased 16 years ago for $50,000 before the SOB died

      No brag (way beyond that), just sharing some perspective.
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    9. #9
      kevins2ooo is offline Senior Member
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      As a Chinese from Hong Kong, I can confirm that showing off is a big part of our culture, from how skinny your wife is to what purses your wife carries to the watch on your wrist to the car you drive and the area you live in. Everyday you walk out the door you are comparing and being compared. That's city living in Asia...

      But with that said, their competitions to obtain those high end koi should not affect average koi keepers like me. What motivation would the breeders or dealers have if only their top koi are being sold and their bread and butter koi are sitting in the tank losing value because nobody wants to pay the "inflated" cost.

    10. #10
      KingstonKoi is offline Senior Member
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      Also need to consider the supply side of the pricing curve. Recently attended a talk by an extremely well-known koi importer. He discussed how costs have risen across-the-board for things like transportation. The cost per box of koi has gone up dramatically. And the lack of direct flights from Japan to various cities in the US greatly complicates the importing process. In his case he had to drive 900 miles to a city that had a direct flight from Japan in order to pick up a load of koi last year. All of the koi had to be repackaged with fresh water and oxygen before the driving them back home. That’s significantly more time and cost to import the same number of fish as the prior year. After listening to him, felt lucky to have any fish at all after the last year of Covid restrictions.

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    11. #11
      batman is offline Senior Member
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      About every household item has went up in a very short time. Too much easy money - Too much demand - Too few items. Some items have went up significantly and are probably there to stay. I purchased a nice home for my mother 24 months ago at $272K, it is now appraised at $425k.
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    12. #12
      Orlando is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      About every household item has went up in a very short time. Too much easy money - Too much demand - Too few items. Some items have went up significantly and are probably there to stay. I purchased a nice home for my mother 24 months ago at $272K, it is now appraised at $425k.
      No disrespect intended, but it sounds that we are headed towards 2006 again, how quickly people forget...

    13. #13
      danzcool is offline Senior Member
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      I feel more than anything it is the lack of demand in the USA driving up the price, the dealers need to stay afloat and are holding fish longer than they used to based on lower turnover, that also means they are paying more for food & upkeep. But beyond that inflation in general is real and likely permanent, so yeah, the dollar in general buys about 50% less than it did 2 years ago. Just look at the supermarket and restaurant prices.
      Koiphen member since 05-13-2004

    14. #14
      audioenvy is offline Supporting Member
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      Even without any increase in the cost of the actual koi, the cost of bringing a koi into the US has increased dramatically in the last few years. Let's say a breeder sells a 2yo koi to the dealer for $1000. Let's say the dealer needs to make only $200 on the koi after covering his or her expenses. You still have the cost of shipping from Japan, the amortized cost the dealer must charge to recoup the expenses of travel to japan, import/licensing fees, QT, parasite treatment, KHV testing, and feeding, and then the cost to ship the fish to you. All of those costs have gone up--but especially shipping. You are going to end up easily spending $2000, without anyone getting rich. Now consider if the fish costs $500. All of the other costs are basically the same so you will spend $1500--or $1400 if the dealer only makes $100.

      In my view, yes there is a trickle down effect to the price of koi due to the continued popularity of koi (in some areas of the world it's much more popular and much more of a recognized status than in the US). It's not the Lamborghini koi that are driving up the price of your $1000 koi as much as it is the BMW and Mercedes koi. Regardless of what country they are from, hobbyists who want that type of koi are definitely driving up the price of the Toyotas.
      Last edited by audioenvy; 09-14-2021 at 08:01 AM.

    15. #15
      Paul Sabucchi is offline Senior Member
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      One of these days I will have a bit of a chat with my retailer as I have to give him my wish list, Ask him how much he reckons prices in Japan have gone up year on year for the last few years. He knows I don't quibble on price so there is no need for him to "embellish" the facts

    16. #16
      zek is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by KoiFan84 View Post
      No. A koi that was 42K is now 50K. A koi that was 36K is now 42K all the way down to was $200 is now $350. Clever retorts though fellas. I guess you never took economics.
      Seriously doubt China has any impact on the price of lower end koi.

      Now the ongoing devaluation of the dollar has significant impact.

    17. #17
      kevins2ooo is offline Senior Member
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      I agree...pretty sure high-end and $100 koi do not share the same supply and demand curve. Unless VHQ koi became so expensive the semi-rich hobbyists are forced to obtain lower end koi. But still, there is a huge gap between high-end and VHQ...

      It's like the Bay Area, foreign investors from certain parts of the world drive up the home prices, forcing long time / original Bay Area residents to move inland, to say, Sacramento and Folsom. That in turn also drives up the home prices here...etc etc. So it could but given the breeders produce thousands and thousands of koi every year it's unlikely.

    18. #18
      Russell Peters's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by audioenvy View Post
      Even without any increase in the cost of the actual koi, the cost of bringing a koi into the US has increased dramatically in the last few years. Let's say a breeder sells a 2yo koi to the dealer for $1000. Let's say the dealer needs to make only $200 on the koi after covering his or her expenses. You still have the cost of shipping from Japan, the amortized cost the dealer must charge to recoup the expenses of travel to japan, import/licensing fees, QT, parasite treatment, KHV testing, and feeding, and then the cost to ship the fish to you. All of those costs have gone up--but especially shipping. You are going to end up easily spending $2000, without anyone getting rich. Now consider if the fish costs $500. All of the other costs are basically the same so you will spend $1500--or $1400 if the dealer only makes $100.

      In my view, yes there is a trickle down effect to the price of koi due to the continued popularity of koi (in some areas of the world it's much more popular and much more of a recognized status than in the US). It's not the Lamborghini koi that are driving up the price of your $1000 koi as much as it is the BMW and Mercedes koi. Regardless of what country they are from, hobbyists who want that type of koi are definitely driving up the price of the Toyotas.
      Most dealers don't test for KHV so no price increases should be included for that.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    19. #19
      Spartan is offline Senior Member
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      Inflation is way up and likely to go further. This may hit the US and Europe more than Asia due to the stimulus packages and other government cash infusions in the form of direct benefits. Demand from China has been a factor for years in many industries such as oil to use one that we all are familiar with. This is not new.
      Japanese currency has been deflating at the same time and over the past few years, so the price change that we see here is that much more.
      Thus koi prices (like any product imported from Japan) are rising higher relative to other things. So are those koi prices surpassing the combined inflation from the US and deflation from Japan? No one publishes wholesale koi prices, which mean that a dealer like Russ would have to say if they are booking prices at a steeper climb than usual. I would love to know the numbers, wouldn't you?

    20. #20
      audioenvy is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      Most dealers don't test for KHV so no price increases should be included for that.
      Those who don't test should not charge, agreed.

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