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    Thread: Which fry would you keep or cull?

    1. #1
      SimonW's Avatar
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      Which fry would you keep or cull?

      Hello friends:

      Earlier years I got so few fry that I could keep them all over winter. But this summer I got 1000+ fry therefore I will have to cull them soon. I have never done it, so I wonder how you experienced friends would select with these fry that are in these 2 photos.

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      I am thankful if you could tell me which ones you surely would keep and which ones you surely would cull. You donīt need to comment on all of them. I will keep max 10% of the fry over the coming winter.

      I have also some questions:

      1) Two of the three possible fathers are ginrin, but none of the fry are visibly ginrin, may I then say that the father is the one without ginrin, as the ginrin-gene is dominant? Indeed the one without ginrin was most active in spawning.

      2) The fry were almost all white, but now (5 weeks) they have become very dark, is it normal for sanke fry?

      Thanks!


      Their mother (mostly likely bekko as almost all the fry were white when they just hatched):
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      Their possible fathers:
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      Last edited by SimonW; 07-30-2021 at 05:49 PM.

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    2. #2
      SimonW's Avatar
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      By the way, the fry in the two photos look different because in the first photo I had selected them because of more color and then kept in a less densely populated aquarium with plenty of food.

      Fry on the second photo are more representative for majority of the fry which have been kept more densely.

    3. #3
      Matt24's Avatar
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      I don't know much about sanke selection, as the only ones I raised were very long ago when I had little experience. Since I personally prefer robustly built koi, I would select mostly for stronger body shape at this point, with possible exceptions, and wait until later to select for color/pattern. So just based on these two photos, I might select the following ones to keep:
      • First picture of 10: Keep 2, 3, 5, 6 (kind of slim, but good color), 7, 10 (maybe)
      • Second picture of 21: Keep 13, 14 (interesting pattern). Not seeing much else but skinny ones.

      These and others like them, I would let grow and watch their development. Then remove later if I saw a problem.

      Of course, you can see them better and know your space requirements and schedule.

      I might have guessed the female was utsuri. If almost all the young fry were light colored at a week old, that is a clue that maybe she is not utsuri. However, I once had a showa spawn with only 8% dark fry. I typically get 20% to 40% dark fry from showa. Also, I know a dealer/breeder who once had a showa spawn that got all benigoi (solid orange) fry.

    4. #4
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      I am with Matt 13 and 14 possibilities Would be nice to watch their progress
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    5. #5
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      7, 10, 5, 1 & 3

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
      7, 10, 5, 1 & 3
      Thanks! You mean the first photo, right?

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      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      Thanks! You mean the first photo, right?
      All except #7

    8. #8
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      Hello friends:

      Today I culled the fry in my 700 liter tank (I also have a 10+ m3 swimming pool with 2-3 times more fry from the same spawn, no idea how many of them have made it with backswimmers). Most of them have yellow head and black/dark body. I wonder if it is normal for sanke?

      Anyway, I am keeping these, mainly because they have similar appearance as those guys you have picked from the above examples:

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      Some are very small, so I am keeping them separately and will give them living food:

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      There is 1 toby, which in my opinion has ok confirmation therefore I am keeping it:

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      I have culled these fry:

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    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      ... Most of them have yellow head and black/dark body. I wonder if it is normal for sanke? ...
      Long ago, I had an intentional spawn that included sanke. A friend asked for some that I would have culled, and I think I gave him 20-25 fry that were a little under an inch and almost completely black. Several months later, he showed me 2-3 in his main pond that had lightened up considerably. White and reddish-orange had emerged. They still had large sumi spots, and I thought they looked really good. I was very surprised, and he was pleased also, though he thought they still had too much black.

    10. #10
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      Congrats on your success.

      With the number of fry you have, culling is required for sure. However, culling based upon guidelines as through these were Sanke fry may not necessarily produce the best results. My approach would be to cull for deformities, size, body structure, and "best guess" as to future patterns. I would not necessarily assume that if you adhere to Sanke "rules" that you'll get the best outcome.

      Lastly, and please don't take this the wrong way, but I would not move forward with the toby in post 8 - just my 2 cents. Sure, its big, but I do not believe that there's much chance of a decent pattern or colors emerging in the future. My prediction is that this is going to be very bland, and just because it's big now does not indicate future size. It just doesn't possess the necessary basic ingredients for future potential - just my opinion (which may not be worth much...) My selection metrics gravitate more towards: color, skin, scalation, and pattern. I also have no desire to produce 100cm fish either. When I mate a pair for the first time, I keep as many as possible and as long as possible because I simply do not have the skills to make predictions. I almost always use one male to one female in my planned spawnings to minimize variability and provide knowledge on what I "might" expect in repeated pairing of the same parents.

      Good luck with this!!

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    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by spkennyva View Post
      ... My approach would be to cull for deformities, size, body structure, and "best guess" as to future patterns ...
      Agree If we were more like the pros and pulled 10,000 2" fry out of a big mud pond, I could see getting really picky on the patterns at that stage. But I usually find that if I just keep the ones with good bodies, no noticeable deformities (at present size) or clearly bad patterns, I can get the numbers down small enough. That said, if you have the "eye" for it, go ahead and thin them down further to improve the growth of the others.

      Quote Originally Posted by spkennyva View Post
      ... just because it's big now does not indicate future size.
      I think that's usually true. While I suspect giant adults were always bigger than the average siblings, tobi seem to get a jump on the others that does not "stick". The few tobi I've grown out were, by 3 years old, only a little bigger than the siblings they once dwarfed. I also grew out one male tobi that is now 6 years old, but still smaller than my older adult males. So I think the tobi growth spurt has little to due with adult size.

    12. #12
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    13. #13
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      Thank you all! Very good advice indeed!

      Did not know that sanke selection is the most difficult!

      I thought that the female is a bekko, and since bekko are failed sanke and the males are sanke and kohaku, its babies must mostly be sanke. I was even more sure about this when I saw that the newly hatched fry were all white except at most 5 dark ones. But now I donīt know what I am selecting as Matt24 thinks that the female could be utsuri, while the fry mostly are yellow-headed and dark/black bodied.

      Even more conspicuous is that there is no single-colored fry except only 2 solid wild-type fry (I guess that they are chagoi? I am not keeping them), while all the sanke spawns I have seen on Youtube give a big portion of single-colored fry, mostly orange or white.

      I have not thrown out the culled fry yet, so I will do a new selection tomorrow!

    14. #14
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      Here come some of the biggest fry. Half of them, especially those that are bigger, has another mother (last picture).

      I wonder if you experts see anyone more interesting than usual, something like sure keeper? Thanks!

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      Now time will be our friend let's see what it develops into.
      Last edited by Orlando; 10-22-2021 at 01:58 PM.

    16. #16
      Matt24's Avatar
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      It's a little difficult to tell from these photos, but several of the sanke and bekko look like they will be interesting to watch. I agree with Orlando on that one. Looks like a bekko with a butterscotch color at this point.

    17. #17
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      It has been very quiet here lately so I make some noise here.

      Here comes some fresh new pictures of the smallest fry that after 6 months have now reached 2-3 cm. I have total about 100 smaller ones, but those 10 are the best in my opinion. Name:  20211207_165534.jpg
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    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      It has been very quiet here lately so I make some noise here.

      Here comes some fresh new pictures of the smallest fry that after 6 months have now reached 2-3 cm. I have total about 100 smaller ones, but those 10 are the best in my opinion. Name:  20211207_165534.jpg
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      Making noise is always good, I was just thinking; haven't heard from SimonW in a while and here you come making noise, LOL. At this stage of their development on Sanke you want to concentrate on the ones with the better Hi patterns don't worry about the Sumi because it will change unless you are looking at a bekko. Hope this helps

    19. #19
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      Great work Simon!

    20. #20
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      More fry. These are half of the smallest fry I chose to keep 2 months ago. Since they have got special treatment (kept in a 100-liter aquarium with more food) they are no longer the smallest today. Three of the smallest ones are the same in the last photo of my previous post.

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