• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Results 1 to 13 of 13

    Thread: Which fry would you keep or cull?

    1. #1
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Location
      Sweden
      Posts
      839

      Which fry would you keep or cull?

      Hello friends:

      Earlier years I got so few fry that I could keep them all over winter. But this summer I got 1000+ fry therefore I will have to cull them soon. I have never done it, so I wonder how you experienced friends would select with these fry that are in these 2 photos.

      Name:  20210716_185745.w no.jpg
Views: 164
Size:  125.0 KBName:  20210730_175022 w no.jpg
Views: 167
Size:  142.2 KB

      I am thankful if you could tell me which ones you surely would keep and which ones you surely would cull. You donīt need to comment on all of them. I will keep max 10% of the fry over the coming winter.

      I have also some questions:

      1) Two of the three possible fathers are ginrin, but none of the fry are visibly ginrin, may I then say that the father is the one without ginrin, as the ginrin-gene is dominant? Indeed the one without ginrin was most active in spawning.

      2) The fry were almost all white, but now (5 weeks) they have become very dark, is it normal for sanke fry?

      Thanks!


      Their mother (mostly likely bekko as almost all the fry were white when they just hatched):
      Name:  20210610_185527.jpg
Views: 165
Size:  51.1 KB

      Their possible fathers:
      Name:  20210607_184029.jpg
Views: 164
Size:  30.9 KBName:  20210607_185516.jpg
Views: 170
Size:  32.8 KBName:  20210607_190159.jpg
Views: 168
Size:  34.3 KB
      Last edited by SimonW; 07-30-2021 at 05:49 PM.

    2. #2
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Location
      Sweden
      Posts
      839
      By the way, the fry in the two photos look different because in the first photo I had selected them because of more color and then kept in a less densely populated aquarium with plenty of food.

      Fry on the second photo are more representative for majority of the fry which have been kept more densely.

    3. #3
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      2,124
      I don't know much about sanke selection, as the only ones I raised were very long ago when I had little experience. Since I personally prefer robustly built koi, I would select mostly for stronger body shape at this point, with possible exceptions, and wait until later to select for color/pattern. So just based on these two photos, I might select the following ones to keep:
      • First picture of 10: Keep 2, 3, 5, 6 (kind of slim, but good color), 7, 10 (maybe)
      • Second picture of 21: Keep 13, 14 (interesting pattern). Not seeing much else but skinny ones.

      These and others like them, I would let grow and watch their development. Then remove later if I saw a problem.

      Of course, you can see them better and know your space requirements and schedule.

      I might have guessed the female was utsuri. If almost all the young fry were light colored at a week old, that is a clue that maybe she is not utsuri. However, I once had a showa spawn with only 8% dark fry. I typically get 20% to 40% dark fry from showa. Also, I know a dealer/breeder who once had a showa spawn that got all benigoi (solid orange) fry.

    4. #4
      Noahsnana's Avatar
      Noahsnana is offline Koiphen Admin - WWKC
      is Lifetime WWKC
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      So. MD
      Posts
      51,206
      I am with Matt 13 and 14 possibilities Would be nice to watch their progress
      The will of God will not take you where the grace of God cannot keep you. .....
      "I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle." -Winston Churchill Zone 7a
      I believe it can happen... Koi World Peace
      "The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - Margaret Thatcher

    5. #5
      Orlando is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2017
      Location
      Orlando
      Posts
      1,137
      7, 10, 5, 1 & 3

    6. #6
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Location
      Sweden
      Posts
      839
      Quote Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
      7, 10, 5, 1 & 3
      Thanks! You mean the first photo, right?

    7. #7
      Orlando is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jun 2017
      Location
      Orlando
      Posts
      1,137
      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      Thanks! You mean the first photo, right?
      All except #7

    8. #8
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Location
      Sweden
      Posts
      839
      Hello friends:

      Today I culled the fry in my 700 liter tank (I also have a 10+ m3 swimming pool with 2-3 times more fry from the same spawn, no idea how many of them have made it with backswimmers). Most of them have yellow head and black/dark body. I wonder if it is normal for sanke?

      Anyway, I am keeping these, mainly because they have similar appearance as those guys you have picked from the above examples:

      Name:  20210806_171143.jpg
Views: 74
Size:  159.1 KB

      Some are very small, so I am keeping them separately and will give them living food:

      Name:  20210806_172737.jpg
Views: 73
Size:  85.6 KB

      There is 1 toby, which in my opinion has ok confirmation therefore I am keeping it:

      Name:  20210806_175713~2.jpg
Views: 77
Size:  34.7 KB

      I have culled these fry:

      Name:  20210806_170346.jpg
Views: 73
Size:  181.0 KB

    9. #9
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      2,124
      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      ... Most of them have yellow head and black/dark body. I wonder if it is normal for sanke? ...
      Long ago, I had an intentional spawn that included sanke. A friend asked for some that I would have culled, and I think I gave him 20-25 fry that were a little under an inch and almost completely black. Several months later, he showed me 2-3 in his main pond that had lightened up considerably. White and reddish-orange had emerged. They still had large sumi spots, and I thought they looked really good. I was very surprised, and he was pleased also, though he thought they still had too much black.

    10. #10
      spkennyva is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2012
      Location
      Suffolk, VA
      Posts
      186
      Congrats on your success.

      With the number of fry you have, culling is required for sure. However, culling based upon guidelines as through these were Sanke fry may not necessarily produce the best results. My approach would be to cull for deformities, size, body structure, and "best guess" as to future patterns. I would not necessarily assume that if you adhere to Sanke "rules" that you'll get the best outcome.

      Lastly, and please don't take this the wrong way, but I would not move forward with the toby in post 8 - just my 2 cents. Sure, its big, but I do not believe that there's much chance of a decent pattern or colors emerging in the future. My prediction is that this is going to be very bland, and just because it's big now does not indicate future size. It just doesn't possess the necessary basic ingredients for future potential - just my opinion (which may not be worth much...) My selection metrics gravitate more towards: color, skin, scalation, and pattern. I also have no desire to produce 100cm fish either. When I mate a pair for the first time, I keep as many as possible and as long as possible because I simply do not have the skills to make predictions. I almost always use one male to one female in my planned spawnings to minimize variability and provide knowledge on what I "might" expect in repeated pairing of the same parents.

      Good luck with this!!

    11. #11
      Matt24's Avatar
      Matt24 is offline Senior Member
      is watchin' em grow
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oklahoma
      Posts
      2,124
      Quote Originally Posted by spkennyva View Post
      ... My approach would be to cull for deformities, size, body structure, and "best guess" as to future patterns ...
      Agree If we were more like the pros and pulled 10,000 2" fry out of a big mud pond, I could see getting really picky on the patterns at that stage. But I usually find that if I just keep the ones with good bodies, no noticeable deformities (at present size) or clearly bad patterns, I can get the numbers down small enough. That said, if you have the "eye" for it, go ahead and thin them down further to improve the growth of the others.

      Quote Originally Posted by spkennyva View Post
      ... just because it's big now does not indicate future size.
      I think that's usually true. While I suspect giant adults were always bigger than the average siblings, tobi seem to get a jump on the others that does not "stick". The few tobi I've grown out were, by 3 years old, only a little bigger than the siblings they once dwarfed. I also grew out one male tobi that is now 6 years old, but still smaller than my older adult males. So I think the tobi growth spurt has little to due with adult size.

    12. #12
      kdh is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Location
      NW Arkansas
      Posts
      8,241

    13. #13
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2018
      Location
      Sweden
      Posts
      839
      Thank you all! Very good advice indeed!

      Did not know that sanke selection is the most difficult!

      I thought that the female is a bekko, and since bekko are failed sanke and the males are sanke and kohaku, its babies must mostly be sanke. I was even more sure about this when I saw that the newly hatched fry were all white except at most 5 dark ones. But now I donīt know what I am selecting as Matt24 thinks that the female could be utsuri, while the fry mostly are yellow-headed and dark/black bodied.

      Even more conspicuous is that there is no single-colored fry except only 2 solid wild-type fry (I guess that they are chagoi? I am not keeping them), while all the sanke spawns I have seen on Youtube give a big portion of single-colored fry, mostly orange or white.

      I have not thrown out the culled fry yet, so I will do a new selection tomorrow!

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •