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  • Results 1 to 19 of 19

    Thread: Need help to judge Shiro Utsuri tosai

    1. #1
      Jas9412 is offline Junior Member
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      Question Need help to judge Shiro Utsuri tosai

      I recently came across a quite good looking shiro utsuri, tosai from omosako farm and I'm thinking to add it into my pond. However, I heard that there are a lot to consider such as pattern, sumi patches & etc... before buying a shiro utsuri. Can anyone kind enough to help me to observe this koi has any great potential to develop beautiful sumi patches in the future.

      Lot of thanks.
      Attached Images Attached Images  

    2. #2
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
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      I am not so experienced, but I have heard that sumi often changes with time with shiro utsuri, and I have seen tens of pictures of shiro utsuri development which has confirmed this, as the changes are significant. So I would only care about the confirmation and skin quality.

    3. #3
      Jas9412 is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      I am not so experienced, but I have heard that sumi often changes with time with shiro utsuri, and I have seen tens of pictures of shiro utsuri development which has confirmed this, as the changes are significant. So I would only care about the confirmation and skin quality.
      Hi, so do you think this koi worth adding to the pond?

    4. #4
      Jas9412 is offline Junior Member
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      Hi, so is it worth adding to the pond? I only wanted to add one into my pond for shiro and I just don't want to regret in future...

    5. #5
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
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      The Omosako farm is famous for Shiro Utsuri,

      Looking at it and with my gut feel, I would add it to my collection and enjoy watching it grow and develop into a beaut.

      The underlying Sumi is there to create the chequer board pattern which makes the Shiro more interesting.

      If I am not mistaken Omosakos fish do take time to develop.

      Adjust and maintain the recommended water conditions to give the Sumi the best chance.

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      Orlando is offline Senior Member
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      I would pass, am looking for thisName:  image_20170225_200853_1591223901203-1-1.jpg
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Size:  9.7 KB
      Great shirogi and solid and thick sumi.

    7. #7
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
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      Horses for courses
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    8. #8
      Jas9412 is offline Junior Member
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      Does that mean this shiro koi has less potential to develop beautiful shiroji in future? The person told me this koi gurantee will have more sumi but either more or less is still unknown..

    9. #9
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
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      Tosai is difficult. But I agree with Coolwon: Omasako koi farm has so good reputation with SU that the chance of it developing well is good.

    10. #10
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
      I would pass, am looking for thisName:  image_20170225_200853_1591223901203-1-1.jpg
Views: 220
Size:  9.7 KB
      Great shirogi and solid and thick sumi.
      I think the pattern counts,when fish are shown at Koi shows?
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    11. #11
      Orlando is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      I think the pattern counts,when fish are shown at Koi shows?
      How about this picture 5yrs later same koiName:  20191126_121334-e1576553704189-450x800-1.jpg
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Size:  21.9 KB
      In my opinion the original posters koi has to much sumi at such a young stage.

    12. #12
      Jas9412 is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
      How about this picture 5yrs later same koiName:  20191126_121334-e1576553704189-450x800-1.jpg
Views: 207
Size:  21.9 KB
      In my opinion the original posters koi has to much sumi at such a young stage.
      yes, thats what I'm concern about. I afraid the sumi might later cover most of the koi body parts making the white skin area less visible....

    13. #13
      MikeM is offline Super Member
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      Folks need to remember that just because Omosako produces superb Shiro Utsuri, as with every breeder of nearly every variety, the bulk of the farm's production is junk. As with all of the best breeders, the best tosai are kept to be grown to nisai. All the rest are sold off unless so poor that they are not marketable. It is highly unlikely any tosai will become the beauty seen in photographs of show koi. The Shiro Utsuri posted by Orlando has lustrous, thick sumi of good quality and the shiro is quite clean. The glossy quality of the sumi is notable in the first photo. How it will develop pattern-wise is a mystery, but it shows there will be sharp contrast between the sumi and the shiro. The photo posted by Jas9412 shows a tosai with great potential as to pattern, but is any of the sumi shiny? Is any of it thick? No. How it will develop is a mystery. Is the shiro clean? No. Will it improve? That, too, is a mystery. Why did Omosako sell off a tosai with great potential for pattern? Most likely, based on generational experience with this line of genetics, it was realized that the chances of everything coming together was low. Other possibilities are that the tosai was not growing as large as it brethren and missed the size cut-off for keeping another year, or there was not enough room in the mud ponds for this one to stay. Tosai that just miss the cut-off can turn out to be very good by hobbyist standards. Such tosai can be sold at higher prices to favored dealers. Most tosai get sold off in batches, often grouped by size, to whatever dealers happen along. Dealers who have long patronized a particular breeder generally are offered higher quality fish over newcomers. The Fall 2020 crop was a bit different because Covid prevented many dealers from traveling to Japan. Dealers outside Japan mostly had to buy without seeing koi in person. Breeders became more willing to sell to newcomers as the season progressed.

      Unless the dealer offering the tosai has a long history of selling Omosako's SUs, the chances are very high that the tosai posted by Jas9412 has only a slight chance of developing better than tosai from any other Japanese breeder of SUs.

      Should he buy it? If he wants only a gorgeous SU and no time wasted on one that is unlikely to pan out, then he needs to focus on nisai and sansai, and be ready to spend $1,000 or more. If an attractive pattern will suffice, go for it.... but do not spend more than you are willing to spend on an evening's dinner & entertainment. ....whatever that means to your wallet.

    14. #14
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      The Omosako farm is famous for Shiro Utsuri,

      Looking at it and with my gut feel, I would add it to my collection and enjoy watching it grow and develop into a beaut.

      The underlying Sumi is there to create the chequer board pattern which makes the Shiro more interesting.

      If I am not mistaken Omosakos fish do take time to develop.

      Adjust and maintain the recommended water conditions to give the Sumi the best chance.



      It could turn out a beaut.






      How to get things moving for a hobbyist Koi keeper on Koiphen.
      Last edited by coolwon; 07-27-2021 at 11:02 AM.
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    15. #15
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Jas9412 View Post
      Hi, so is it worth adding to the pond? I only wanted to add one into my pond for shiro and I just don't want to regret in future...
      What are they asking for it?

      How do you know it's out of Omosako set up?



      .FOLKS, please show us all your scruffy AND beaut Shiros!
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    16. #16
      Orlando is offline Senior Member
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      Here are few examples, poor camera on this phone my apologiesName:  20210610_140738.jpg
Views: 200
Size:  137.0 KB

    17. #17
      kdh is offline Senior Member
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      A great fish to learn from for sure.
      Nice baiting Orlando. Saw that one comming. lol
      Imagine Orlando's koi cost just a little North of a twenty dollar bill.
      Last edited by kdh; 07-28-2021 at 08:11 AM.

    18. #18
      kdh is offline Senior Member
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      here are some more that just cost north of 20 bucks and discussions. And nobody knows how they will end up.

      https://www.koi-bito.com/forum/forum...i-shiro-utsuri

    19. #19
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Orlando View Post
      Here are few examples, poor camera on this phone my apologiesName:  20210610_140738.jpg
Views: 200
Size:  137.0 KB


      Looks like we are starting off with a bowl scruffs!
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