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  • Results 1 to 4 of 4

    Thread: When to look for thick tail tube?

    1. #1
      SimonW's Avatar
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      When to look for thick tail tube?

      Hello friends:

      I am most interested in good confirmation when I do home-breeding. I just wonder at which stage, or how big the fry are when you can see whether they will have nice thick tail tube or not?

      Thanks!

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    2. #2
      Orlando is offline Senior Member
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      SimonW I don't want to in any way discourage you or anyone, but when it comes to breeding koi I've learned that nishikigoi is one of the most difficult creatures on this planet to reproduce with any type of continuity. Let me degress for a second here and all get back to nishikigoi in a second. I've breed live bearers, egg layers, mouth broothers the reason I start with this information is so folks understand the time and research that I have invested in raising/breeding fish these last 50 year's, nishikigoi have taught me one thing and that is you won't or can't go at it by just guessing; when nishikigoi are young unless you have observed multiple spawns from the same parents and even then I've had same parents give different results from one year to another, I once got some Apistograma Cacatodies and attempted to produce some triple reds and you know to my surprise I did on the first attempt and neither of the parents were. Nishikigoi have been worked with for a few hundred years now and they are different in the sence that you can't just expect a certain result with fish that have not been tested in the past and by that I mean if you don't understand what the parents will produce you will have to put in the time to see if your parents can and will consistently produce the same or close results. All cite my own example with the Goshiki line I've been working since 2011, yes 10 yrs now and my goal was from the beginning to impose Goshiki on a Gosanke frame and it took me 3 attempts you just can't look at a 3" koi and say there it is, these fish need time to develop and show the breeder if they have what it takes to move forward. I apologize if I got long winded but the answer to your question is you have to be serious about what your goals are with nishikigoi and you have to be willing to put in your time. One more thing and please understand what am trying to say here, stay with well established breeding lines that will greatly improve your odds.
      Last edited by Orlando; 07-25-2021 at 10:49 PM.

    3. #3
      Spartan is offline Senior Member
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      Totally agree w Orlando. That said I do think you can see what the conformation will be at 5-6". Many things can subsequently occur that may change the outcome, but if the body does not look great at that time it won't be great later. There are of course nuances that are bloodline dependent where some fish put on a lot of length early and develop the thick heavy body later, but the good ones will be well proportioned regardless.

    4. #4
      Matt24's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Spartan View Post
      ... the good ones will be well proportioned regardless.
      Yes, I think all the koi with good body conformations as adults also had good shapes as fry, proportionally, though not as heavily built. I can't say that I really focus on the tail much other than to see if it is straight. I look at the overall shape of the fry. If the tail is too small for the body, it jumps out at me and as the overall shape being poor. I don't keep such dumpy looking fry unless it has some other special characteristic that I want to keep observing.

      To me, male koi rarely appear to have a weak tail, unless they are just skinny in general. But female koi are trickier. Some might look great for a couple of years and then blow out their shapes, making even a strong tail look weak attached to a body of such girth. Such a female may grow to over 30" and have enough power in her tail to shower everyone on the patio, yet tail may still look disproportionally small with that enormous body.

      The complexity of the genetics in koi breeding may depend largely on one's goals. If you are playing three dimensional chess like Orlando, trying to create and stablize the breeding group of koi from one variety but carrying the characteristics of another variety or doing like Koigrl (Max) and developing a new stable breeding group over multiple generations by starting only with other varieties, then you are tackling something very complex. On the other hand, it's a lot simpler if you are playing checkers like me, just trying to get two or three koi that I will enjoy having in my pond. There are other levels in between, such as those who want to produce koi to sell or that may compete in local/regional shows. So it's up to each breeder to determine what their goals are.

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