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  • Page 7 of 7 FirstFirst ... 4567
    Results 121 to 140 of 140

    Thread: Roddy’s current potassium permanganate practice

    1. #121
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Victor Chen View Post
      Thank you Roddy for the detailed explanation! Another question. You use H2O2 at the third day to clean up the pond. What is science behind it? I know when HP meet PP, HP become a reducing agent. Is that the purpose?

      I used HP once this spring primarily to take care of excessive string algae. It worked for one week. The water became brown. Also seems algae dissolved. There is no dead floating things. But just in two weeks, these algae grow back.




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      The peroxide reacts with the trace remaining soluble forms of lower oxidation states of PP to give a product that is colorless. I don’t know what that product is, but certainly the water becomes clear and colorless. But if I don’t add the peroxide, within a full day after the charge, the brown color is gone and the water is super clear, too. Whether I add the peroxide or not depends on what else is happening that day, more often I don’t add it.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    2. #122
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Sarge View Post
      Roddy, good to see you still slinging the kool-aid and fighting back at those who say your methods are not those of the "purist". You keep being you brother!

      Hey Sarge! These days it is real fun “being me”.

      It was not always so much fun, like everyone else, I had lots of rough spots and “close calls”. Many can’t wait to retire from whatever they do to earn a living, but developing new ways to do many different things, inventing quite a few new products, and traveling the globe on business expense accounts, always going first class, has been beyond my wildest dreams when growing up in a very poor farming district in southern Oklahoma.

      Now one week from my 80th birthday, I find I have surprised myself again! After 51 years working for two large chemical companies, in December 2018 my employer Bayer chose to terminate employment of all its West Virginia employees, which included me. I was unable to get beyond the HR departments to be considered for the few hundred job applications I submitted. So instead I went back to graduate school and quickly added a Master’s degree in another field, namely environmental Science. At completion of that task, word got around, and now I have my choice of extremely worthwhile assignments at high pay levels.

      The other way I surprised myself the last few years has been improving my body by eliminating the aging process by actually reversing it. So “just being myself” has taken on an entirely new meaning.

      So thank you, Sarge, for noticing how I am enjoying “being me”! Not everyone would be so wonderfully observant. And glad tidings to you and yours as Elizabeth and I choose to have our “Christmas in July” celebration this weekend with a big house and swimming pool party for 20 of our extended family members, to make up for staying hermits at Christmas season during the pandemic.

      Hopefully this “glad tidings” post can stay up and not make the purist crowd angry again. But if they are angry, not my problem according to my in house shrink Elizabeth.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    3. #123
      Sarge's Avatar
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      Enjoy your celebration and a early Happy Birthday to you. I pray I can make it to 80 and be as spry and active as you.
      "Sarge"


      Disclosure statement: Don't read into where I post, or with whom I choose to call my friend. If you know me - you know me. All people are created equal and all humans have fault.

    4. #124
      webted is offline Senior Member
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      Hi:

      I certainly wouldn't argue against the effectiveness of treating water with powerful oxidants. As you've said, the chemistry behind this is pretty simple.

      However, this is most certainly causing significant stress to the fish every time you do it.

      Dr. Strange of Kentucky communicated this to me privately a few years ago, although I can't find the specific references. He may not have published it. It was part of an array of investigations his group did on stress induction in fish, which included finding that clove oil functioned as both a paralytic agent and stressor (which is really a nightmare, when you think about it).

      This group looked at higher levels (10ppm) for shorter periods (30min). The key graph shows that the fish showed significant increases in circulating cortisol (the universally recognized 'stress hormone') that persisted over 24hours. In the graph below, the solid line is control (remember, grabbing a fish and pulling a blood sample is stressful, so you expect the control line to go up as well) and the dotted line is the fish that were exposed to 10ppm KMnO4.

      Name:  Screen Shot 2021-07-22 at 4.30.45 PM.png
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      Maybe koi aren't as sensitive as goldfish, and maybe the effect isn't linear. Nonetheless, in the absence of proof, I'd be pretty reluctant to recommend a treatment that significantly stresses your animal out most of the time. I imagine that an irritant in the water column for a fish is equivalent to an irritant in the air supply for a mammal, and not part of my philosophy as an animal keeper.

      Oxidizers certainly have a place in koi husbandry, but redox potential of the water and first year growth is a pretty narrow view.

      -t

    5. #125
      Victor Chen is offline Junior Member
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      Roddy, you truly have a very colorful life!
      About stress, I always feel a right amount of stress is beneficial to any animals (including human). If a person (or a koi) never experienced any stress, under a rare situation if stress is unavoidable, a small stress may cause big consequence. Is there any research about the “right level of stress”? Also regarding koi’s slime coat, with the stimulation from PP’s damaging, will it actually stimulate koi to grow thicker slime coat (like putting salt)?


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    6. #126
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      Hello Roddy and other knowledgeable friends here:

      I wonder if smaller koi are more sensitive to PP-treatment than bigger koi? I am thinking about doing routine PP-treatment of my fry tank, but I don´t want to kill the fry which are mostly 2-3 cm (1 inch) now.

      Thanks!
      Last edited by SimonW; 07-29-2021 at 08:36 PM.

    7. #127
      kevins2ooo is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad View Post
      Every 4th day is the 4 ppm PP treatment. PP will immediately oxidize both formaldehyde and Malachite Green, so using both the same day won’t be helpful!
      So day 1 PP treatment.
      Days 2,3,4 full formaldehyde/malachite green treatments each day.
      Day 5 PP again
      Days 6,7,8 formaldehyde/malachite green
      And so on
      Each 4 days 1 PP and 3 formaldehyde malachite greens
      Repeat this 5 times over 21 days and there have been 5 PP treatments and 15 formaldehyde/malachite green treatments.
      So I used up two gallon jars at $90 each using formaldehyde/malachite green
      The formaldehyde/malachite green is much more effective on fungal issues, and several parasites, notably gill flukes.
      But neither the formaldehyde nor the malachite green last long enough in a normal koi pond environment to do any good killing parasites and fungal infections without first clearing the water of its chemical scum piles by a long lasting PP treatment right before the formalin/malachite green dose.
      postscript: please be aware formaldehyde tests as TAN or total ammonia nitrogen on all common test kits. So in a normal pond at full dose of formaldehyde, the test kit will show 5 to 10 ppm ammonia when there is no ammonia. In my pond, when using formaldehyde, following its concentration as ammonia, it is all gone dependably in 6 hours after addition, when I cleaned the pond water with PP before formaldehyde use. Without cleaning the water with PP, a formaldehyde dose is gone in less than an hour, and that is why it won’t work without first cleaning the water with PP.
      Or remove the fish to a clean treatment tank with fresh clean water for formaldehyde malachite green treatment. For me, catching all the koi and moving them to a separate treatment tank is too difficult, and I know how to use chemicals really well.
      One of my fish has been sluggish and spitting out food...If I want to apply PP, before BSDT, how much PPM should I use? Do I need to use hydrogen peroxide to neutralize PP first, or would hydrogen peroxide affect the effectiveness of BSDT (with Formulin and Malachite Green)?

    8. #128
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by SimonW View Post
      Thank you Roddy, You have answered my question so clearly. I feel even more confident with PP.

      What I usually do is starting at 3 ppm, and when I see that the purple color has clearly faded I add another 1 ppm. I keep doing this for at least 4 hours without inactivating PP. Normally it means that I add 3 times. The first addition normally after 20-30 min, second addition normally after 1-2 hours, and last addition after 4 hours, some times 0.5 ppm after 4 hours and 0.5 ppm after 6 hours as the color has not faded so much after the second addition.
      The description by Simon W is ideal for cleaning up the water in a koi pond for the purpose of having a more effective formaldehyde/malachite green treatment the next day.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    9. #129
      NaturalK is offline Senior Member
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      You said that PP turning brown has about 75% of its oxidation power left, so would it mean if the PP is purple/pink for 20mins, then turning brown for another 60mins, there wouldnt be any oxidation happening after?

    10. #130
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      There is oxidation capacity left after the water turns brown. The permanganate ions are gone, but the brown color is manganate which is still providing oxidizing power since there are 3 oxidation states available. The danger to the fish is gone, but oxidizing power remains. I leave it alone and the next day, in my system, the brown color is gone, and the water is clear. All the manganese at this point is insoluble manganese dioxide brown/black solids which are caught nicely in my bead filter. So I do a good backwash of the bead filter and the solids are washed away.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    11. #131
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      Roddy,
      Where do you get your formaldehyde-Malachite Green from? Is it two different items or are the both in the same mix? What is the dosage?
      Last edited by seamonkey; 1 Week Ago at 08:33 AM.

    12. #132
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      I buy the broad spectrum disease treatment gallons from Amazon for $74. Typically arrives my house two days after placing the order. Formaldehyde and Malachite Green.

      I use bottle label directions except do not do water changes between doses.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    13. #133
      Traitimkh8 is offline Senior Member
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      Does anyone having problems with their koi flashing and jumping when treatment at 4ppm PP? Mine acting crazy, lot of flashing and jumping for the first 45 minutes. This was only mine 3nd time treating the whole pond with PP in the last 6 months, and it does it everytime

    14. #134
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      My koi do not flash or jump when I dose the pond at 4 ppm PP.

      Many years ago during obvious parasitic infections, some koi jumped trying to dislodge parasites the PP was treating. I did not observe any of that behavior during the 21 days of alternate 4 ppm PP treatment and 3 days successive formaldehyde/Malachite Green treatments in late May and early June this year when I was clearing whatever 12 new small koi added to the pond on May 19.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    15. #135
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      hi can i ask best place to buy pp and formaldehyde and malachite green? thank you

    16. #136
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by oceanmann1869 View Post
      hi can i ask best place to buy pp and formaldehyde and malachite green? thank you
      Maui could be different to buy PP than in the continental US. Here it is stocked in stores that sell water conditioning and water well supplies. It is used to regenerate green sand filters for example. Sold on-line too but delivery to Maui May be different.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    17. #137
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      Quote Originally Posted by oceanmann1869 View Post
      hi can i ask best place to buy pp and formaldehyde and malachite green? thank you
      pp - https://www.homedepot.com/l/Maui/HI/Kahului/96732/1703

    18. #138
      Roddy Conrad's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by stephen View Post
      $27 for 1.5 pounds potassium permanganate at the Home Depot in that link.

      Formaldehyde and malachite green may be hard to find on Maui.
      Your koiphen chemist and environmental scientist.

    19. #139
      seamonkey's Avatar
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      Is this the same PP used. I can get 5lbs for $40 on ebay
      https://www.ebay.com/itm/16461032595...1&isGTR=1#shId

    20. #140
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      Quote Originally Posted by Roddy Conrad View Post
      $27 for 1.5 pounds potassium permanganate at the Home Depot in that link.

      Formaldehyde and malachite green may be hard to find on Maui.
      Yea - Home Depot charges more in Maui, Hi but it is close to home and he can pick up locally. How much is shipping to Hi? He may be able to save $ having it shipped in?

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