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    Thread: Another Pond! ... going with liner!

    1. #1
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      Another Pond! ... going with liner! ... back to natural!

      Ok I have decided I think I better just go with another liner pond and skip trying to have it natural with bog filter... I need HELP! I know that if I am not able to see the fish it will make me crazier than I already am! I am attaching a crude sketch picture of what I want. I need help and input as to what I need to add and where to add it to make it work. Like pump size, skimmer, bottom drain, tpr's etc. Any suggestions and recommendations would be greatly appreciated! ThanksName:  pond sketch.jpg
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      Last edited by schreiberkoi; 05-10-2021 at 11:44 AM.

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      Can't wait to watch another pond build!

      How are you going to do the island?
      So you want clear water... what's our budget?
      --Steve

    3. #3
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Can't wait to watch another pond build!

      How are you going to do the island?
      So you want clear water... what's our budget?
      We purchased the lot next to it that has a house that we are tearing down. I am going to have them dig it out for me while they have the equipment here from taking the house down. Just thinking he can dig it out around the existing soil like a moat. same with the waterfall area only I will build it up with soil. want it to com down all sides with places to tuck in plants. I could still do a bog filter if you think it would be beneficial but have never done one and would need guidance on that as well. As far as budget it's non-existent! Going to have to save up. The liner alone I figure is going to break the bank. The cost of removing the house building a carport and storage shed along with a fence is taking more than I would like.... Sooooo I may have to have it a natural pond for a while until I can save up to get what I need. Any suggestions and guidance would be great! Thanks

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      Risky and difficult design that will increase build costs/time. Look at wall stability at depths and widths needed. Why not 2 separate ponds one slightly higher than the other?
      The real Batman wears polyester! Don't be fooled by the plastic imposter.

    5. #5
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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      Risky and difficult design that will increase build costs/time. Look at wall stability at depths and widths needed. Why not 2 separate ponds one slightly higher than the other?
      I have always wanted an island... are you saying it's not doable? The island will be approximately 13'x16' and waterfall area 6'x6'. the space between the Island and waterfall doesn't have to be that deep I'm thinking just a couple feet between the two and maybe 2' deep just enough to have the liner down and water flow between. What kind of slope will I need to be stable? TIA

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      What do I need to make it work and have clear water? Skimmer on one end and a couple of TPR's? Should I have a bottom drain by the waterfall end? My last pond build I did I did not have this kind of space but my pond is between 6-8ft. wide at the widest with cinder block collar thought with the same design only with the island this would work. I may have to just do a little at a time but I would like input on what I need and design so I can try to plan out my purchases. Thanks!Name:  pond yard.jpg
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Size:  188.6 KBName:  pond 2012 full water.jpg
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    7. #7
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      Quote Originally Posted by schreiberkoi View Post
      I have always wanted an island... are you saying it's not doable? The island will be approximately 13'x16' and waterfall area 6'x6'. the space between the Island and waterfall doesn't have to be that deep I'm thinking just a couple feet between the two and maybe 2' deep just enough to have the liner down and water flow between. What kind of slope will I need to be stable? TIA
      Definitely doable as anything is possible with enough money and time. Just saying it will have a big impact on labor hours and design needed for structure and proper flows. Greatly impacting materials used and costs.

      Unless your building walls difficult to pre-dig with an excavator but not impossible. Most often pre-digging before you're ready for construction results in more labor and materials to stabilize sides from erosion. Are you building on loose soil where something's recently been dug out?
      Last edited by batman; 05-08-2021 at 10:06 PM.
      The real Batman wears polyester! Don't be fooled by the plastic imposter.

    8. #8
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      I used just the strips around the island for an idea of how much water you'll need to filter (40x6x4 and 25x8x4)
      and it gives me 26,400 gallons. If you don't go down the RDF route an Ultra sieve III will do about 7500 gallons
      each. I'd get 3 to match up with 6 BD's, 3 on each of the long sides. I think maybe I'd do 4 tpr's, 2 on each end.
      Maybe 4 skimmers, one on each side and each end. Get a 4th sieve and combine the skimmers into 2 - 4" pipes
      and fed them to the sieve. I'd pump the volume from 3 of the sieves (about 20k gph) to one or two sets of showers
      and gravity flow it to the top of the waterfall rocks.
      I'd take the flow from the 4th sieve and run it to 4 s/g filters and match the flow from each one to a tpr.

      Name:  Image1.jpg
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      That's a lot of water...
      --Steve

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      Aquascapes monkey island pond
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      The real Batman wears polyester! Don't be fooled by the plastic imposter.

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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      Definitely doable as anything is possible with enough money and time. Just saying it will have a big impact on labor hours and design needed for structure and proper flows. Greatly impacting materials used and costs.

      Unless your building walls difficult to pre-dig with an excavator but not impossible. Most often pre-digging before you're ready for construction results in more labor and materials to stabilize sides from erosion. Are you building on loose soil where something's recently been dug out?
      No nothing has been dug out

    11. #11
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I used just the strips around the island for an idea of how much water you'll need to filter (40x6x4 and 25x8x4)
      and it gives me 26,400 gallons. If you don't go down the RDF route an Ultra sieve III will do about 7500 gallons
      each. I'd get 3 to match up with 6 BD's, 3 on each of the long sides. I think maybe I'd do 4 tpr's, 2 on each end.
      Maybe 4 skimmers, one on each side and each end. Get a 4th sieve and combine the skimmers into 2 - 4" pipes
      and fed them to the sieve. I'd pump the volume from 3 of the sieves (about 20k gph) to one or two sets of showers
      and gravity flow it to the top of the waterfall rocks.
      I'd take the flow from the 4th sieve and run it to 4 s/g filters and match the flow from each one to a tpr.

      Name:  Image1.jpg
Views: 109
Size:  65.0 KB

      That's a lot of water...
      WOW!! I guess I got excited about having a clean slate to work with and wanting an Island. Now I am heartbroke. I may have to go back to the mud pond if I can't get this figured out. The house will be getting torn down within the next couple of weeks so I am going to have to decide which way to go. My last pond which is 4500 gallons took me a solid week full 8-10 hour days just to dig it out and then finessing and tweaking past that not to mention the filter pit so I wanted to take advantage of having equipment even though I know it will still be digging and work. If resources were unlimited I would love to do this but no way will my non-existent budget (or husband) allow it. I am willing to put in the work and time but there again I am not the most patient person and I know I will want to get it done as quickly as I can. I was thinking through the summer and hopefully have it up and running through the winter to cycle to put fish in by next spring. I was not even considering the amount of water. Just "Go Big or Go Home". What if I downsize and have the one end a bit deeper and sloped toward the other end toward a bottom drain and skimmer with tpr's and S/G filters? Was Thinking shallower on the end by the waterfall which would now be on the outside of pond with a couple tpr's and then maybe a tpr on each side wall aiming toward the other end to help push things along and bottom drain and skimmer at the deeper end. I know no matter what I do I will need the help of this amazing group ... I would not have been able to do my other pond without you guys and I have no illusions of being able to do another without your amazing knowledge base and skills! TIAName:  pond sketch 2.jpg
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    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      Aquascapes monkey island pond
      This is amazing! Thanks for sharing

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      This is the lot we had a big pecan tree taken out and the sidewalk, clothesline poles, and concrete will be removed. Thinking pond center will be about where the sidewalk runs through now. The other picture is from my upstairs looking down on the lot. Where the fence is will be removed and a privacy fence all the way around combining the two yards will go in lastName:  lot next door.jpg
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    14. #14
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      I didn't want to dampen your dream pond but did want to point out the amount of water you'd have. I hear it many times
      to go "bigger" when starting a new pond, but when the realization of having to filter all that water, then cost starts
      rearing it's ugly head. I think when you get to a volume where it becomes financially impossible to filter all of it, then it
      becomes time to think mud pond... but then clarity is sacrificed and often times a natural inflow of water is needed or some
      way to add fresh water. You might look through the mud pond forum to see if you would rather forgo clarity for size.

      With your new drawing I'm thinking the island is an important element in the project because even with the trouble it might
      pose that people have pointed out, it still remains. So I think you're on the right track in downsizing the volume of water and
      keep the island if that's something you really want to include. My lower pond is a "stream" sort of design which normally uses
      a sloping bottom, but I've never noticed a difference by having a even depth. What kind of predators did you find visiting
      your existing pond, if any? Maybe an even 3' or 4' depth might be enough to keep critters at bay and reduce the volume of
      water?

      Don't give up your vision! It took me 3 years to finish my first pond due to my budget... but as they say, if there's a will,
      there's a way.
      --Steve

    15. #15
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I didn't want to dampen your dream pond but did want to point out the amount of water you'd have. I hear it many times
      to go "bigger" when starting a new pond, but when the realization of having to filter all that water, then cost starts
      rearing it's ugly head. I think when you get to a volume where it becomes financially impossible to filter all of it, then it
      becomes time to think mud pond... but then clarity is sacrificed and often times a natural inflow of water is needed or some
      way to add fresh water. You might look through the mud pond forum to see if you would rather forgo clarity for size.

      With your new drawing I'm thinking the island is an important element in the project because even with the trouble it might
      pose that people have pointed out, it still remains. So I think you're on the right track in downsizing the volume of water and
      keep the island if that's something you really want to include. My lower pond is a "stream" sort of design which normally uses
      a sloping bottom, but I've never noticed a difference by having a even depth. What kind of predators did you find visiting
      your existing pond, if any? Maybe an even 3' or 4' depth might be enough to keep critters at bay and reduce the volume of
      water?

      Don't give up your vision! It took me 3 years to finish my first pond due to my budget... but as they say, if there's a will,
      there's a way.
      Thanks Steve! Did you notice the new sketch I added ... what would my water be with this one? I have had my pond with last update to 4500 gallons 9 years now. I hate to say because I don't want to jinx it but I have not had problem with predators. Plenty of snakes (garter)and frogs lots of neighbor hood cats but so far so good.

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      Quote Originally Posted by schreiberkoi View Post
      Thanks Steve! Did you notice the new sketch I added ... what would my water be with this one? I have had my pond with last update to 4500 gallons 9 years now. I hate to say because I don't want to jinx it but I have not had problem with predators. Plenty of snakes (garter)and frogs lots of neighbor hood cats but so far so good.
      I did see the sketch and now that I look again I think I was misreading what the numbers were... I was thinking the 4' and 6' were depths but
      I see now that I think those are widths and the whole pond would be 3' deep... so with the island sized I'd guess at:

      18' (using the sides just as long as the island) x 4' x 3' = 1615 gallons
      20' (full length on the ends) x 6' x 3' = 2692
      so let's say 3200 + 5400 =8600 gallons

      To me this sounds much more doable. I Ultra sieve III will do 7500 gallons so maybe 2 - 4" BD's to the sieve.
      There's a lot of surface area spread out so, while not knowing what the leaf and falling debris is like, I'd try to
      keep as many skimmers as you can handle. If you don't get a lot and you can handle emptying leaf baskets regularly,
      you can feed them directly to a pump and a couple s/g filters. Counting on some push from the waterfall, maybe
      something like this:

      Name:  Image3.jpg
Views: 89
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      It's just a gues... it's easy to sit here and draw pictures,
      --Steve

    17. #17
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I did see the sketch and now that I look again I think I was misreading what the numbers were... I was thinking the 4' and 6' were depths but
      I see now that I think those are widths and the whole pond would be 3' deep... so with the island sized I'd guess at:

      18' (using the sides just as long as the island) x 4' x 3' = 1615 gallons
      20' (full length on the ends) x 6' x 3' = 2692
      so let's say 3200 + 5400 =8600 gallons

      To me this sounds much more doable. I Ultra sieve III will do 7500 gallons so maybe 2 - 4" BD's to the sieve.
      There's a lot of surface area spread out so, while not knowing what the leaf and falling debris is like, I'd try to
      keep as many skimmers as you can handle. If you don't get a lot and you can handle emptying leaf baskets regularly,
      you can feed them directly to a pump and a couple s/g filters. Counting on some push from the waterfall, maybe
      something like this:

      Name:  Image3.jpg
Views: 89
Size:  69.7 KB

      It's just a gues... it's easy to sit here and draw pictures,
      yeah sorry my sketch's aren't the best but yeah even the first sketch those were width's and lengths at 4ft depth so was your first water volume calculations accurate then? I don't have a sieve on my other pond. I remember they were quite expensive so guessing the probably still are. I don't think I will have any more problems with leaves than what I have now with my other pond but just guessing I actually have a catalpa tree over it from the neighbors yard so I fight the blooms and beans from it every year but it does provide some shade. Are the arrows around the skimmer pictures tpr's? I have 2 S/G filters on my other pond so I wonder if I could skip the sieve and do 4 S/G barrels. Steve (AKA birdman ) from high desert koi helped me with my first pond is he still around? I am a visual person I have to have everything drawn out for me so get out the big crayons! lol Thanks for your help!
      Last edited by schreiberkoi; 05-09-2021 at 03:11 PM.

    18. #18
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      No worries! The drawing shows what you're trying to do and that is the main thing. Sadly I did see your
      depth on the first drawing so my guess would be the same. I did think of another way maybe to estimate
      it but not sure it's any better... maybe the math people can verify if I'm guessing correctly... but I tried
      calculating it as a plain oval pond and then using the island as another pond and subtracting the amount
      of water that area would hold... so the first drawing using 40x25x4 and the island of 12x18 is 18,424 gallons
      and the 2nd one is 6368 gallons, so a little better if it's right!

      And yes, the arrows are suppose to be where tpr's would be. Steve is enjoying retirement and traded the ponds
      for a swimming pool , so he stops by every now and then but not as much as he used to, understandably.

      Used sieve's can be found now more than before because of the popularity of RDF's... but they work well so
      even used ones go pretty quickly. For me personally I think your new pond is too much water for just s/g filters.

      Maybe others disagree? We need more view points...
      --Steve

    19. #19
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      Well good for him! Thanks for the input. If I put the waterfall on the outside of the first one that would put the island at 17x24. Yeah I think I really would like an island as this I'm sure will be my last pond build. But I have some thinking to do on it for sure ...

    20. #20
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      Steve would a bog filter be help or be beneficial in any way? TIA

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