• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 52

    Thread: 1,200 gal. Pond Planning! Unique Situation..

    1. #1
      ginandtonic is offline Junior Member
      is in the pond planning phase
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2021
      Location
      Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
      Posts
      29

      Question 1,200 gal. Pond Planning! Unique Situation..

      Hi all,

      I've been a long time lurker here but only signed up for an account today after reading as much as I could! I'm a landscape designer by trade looking to add a koi pond to my own backyard. I am *very* pressed for space, and do not have room for an above grade filtration system, with the exception of being able to hide a couple biofilter barrels behind the waterfall. I'm also in an area that gets about 4' of frost during the winter, so I'm wondering about PVC durability, or if I have to dig all my trenches at 5' depth. I'd like to have an upper perimeter of ornamental rocks half submerged in the water, but no rock material below that for cleanliness reasons. The goal is a garden pond/koi pond hybrid.

      I'm trying to decide on a layout that is most practical and cost efficient. Below is the area I'm working with. One side is the house, the other is the deck, and the other two are pathways - it's about a 15'x15' square area with a Mt. Fuji cherry tree right in the center. The definitely ups the skimmer work and probably creates work for me, but I'm okay with that.

      Name:  IMG_1792.jpg
Views: 202
Size:  228.9 KB

      Both options below are around 1000-1200 gallons including side slopes/shelves. The only spot for the pump to go is under the deck as an external pump (about 14" clearance underneath), unless theres a way to incorporate the pump into the vortex and draw from the top? Not sure. The vortex will have to be below grade (no washout valve at the bottom possible), so I'll have to have a separate pump that I can drop in and drain it out every fall/spring I guess. The lid will be covered with mulch that I'll move off the lid for access as needed.

      Layout Option #1
      A U-shape around the base of the cherry. This is the aesthetic ideal imo for the area I'm working in, but my concern is that by having a U-shape with a waterfall(input) in the center, I'd need a skimmer (output) at both ends of the U, as well as potentially two bottom drains(output).
      Name:  IMG_1813.jpg
Views: 203
Size:  126.9 KB



      Layout Option #2
      More of a kidney shape, with the waterfall (input) at one end, and skimmer at the other to have optimal water movement. This design also poses a tricky problem, as the vortex is now on one side of the pond, and the pump has to be on the other. Saves me a BD and skimmer potentially, but requires more complex piping.
      Name:  IMG_1814.jpg
Views: 199
Size:  122.0 KB


      This is what I've been tossing around for equipment:

      Bottom Drain
      3" pipe running to 55gal vortex.

      Aerator
      Haven't looked into these yet, planning on running one down and strapping it to the top of the BD instead of buying the one with it built in. This gives me flexibility to relocate it during winter shut down when the BD wont be pulling anything.

      Skimmer
      I'll be using this space for biofiltering media, since I can really only fit 60gal at the waterfall. Also drains to the vortex.

      Vortex
      Home made - 55gal drum buried with the top approximately 3" than water level. Need to figure out a way to cone the bottom for the best vortex possible. Can I opt for a submersible pump near the top of this instead of an external under the deck for convenience and cost savings?

      Pump
      1800gph to turn over approximately 1500gph accounting for 2' head and friction. (just a guess) . External, budget friendly, sitting under the deck with a trap door from above that I can reach down through for servicing. (or submersed in Vortex)

      UV clarifier
      Running in line between the pump and biofilter

      Biofilter
      Homemade biofilter using two 30gal. rubbermaid waste bins, matts and bioballs or something similar, water pumps in from the bottom, moves up through the medias, then flows out through two pipes to the adjacent waterfall.


      Please let me know what you all think about this set-up. I'm trying to be as budget friendly as possible while still having quality filtration. I'm fine with occasional maintenance, gardening is one of my favourite hobbies so the pond will be no different. I'd rather avoid daily cleaning though! once a week or two is fine with me.

    2. #2
      EmeraldDragon's Avatar
      EmeraldDragon is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Depressed
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2021
      Location
      Walnut, California
      Posts
      725
      You are correct on BD on Layout Option #1. It will needs two BD. IMHO, I would do option #1. As you stated "This is the aesthetic ideal imo for the area" and I do agreed with you on that aspect. And BTW, you don't want to finish the pond and at the end and turn around saying "I should have done it the other way". It also, would looks more pretty with option #1 once it finished too.

      You might be able to get away with one skimmer at the center by the tree, (I think) but I could be wrong. Some of the guys/gals here that do this with their eyes close probably can shred more lights on this. But of course, two would make it better naturally.


      EDIT: You might have the same concept pond as https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...lds-a-New-Pond, even though you are doing the U Shape on option #1.
      Last edited by EmeraldDragon; 05-03-2021 at 11:01 AM.
      -=[Sunny]=-

      I have served, I have fought to defends the rights and freedom for all Americans. I am a proud Retired Veteran!

      Zen's Pond and Garden - The Zen Zone that keeps our sanity alive every day!


    3. #3
      ginandtonic is offline Junior Member
      is in the pond planning phase
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2021
      Location
      Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
      Posts
      29
      Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldDragon View Post
      You are correct on BD on Layout Option #1. It will needs two BD. IMHO, I would do option #1. As you stated "This is the aesthetic ideal imo for the area" and I do agreed with you on that aspect. And BTW, you don't want to finish the pond and at the end and turn around saying "I should have done it the other way". It also, would looks more pretty with option #1 once it finished too.

      You might be able to get away with one skimmer at the center by the tree, (I think) but I could be wrong. Some of the guys/gals here that do this with their eyes close probably can shred more lights on this. But of course, two would make it better natually.
      Great, thanks for your feedback! I'd say I lean 60/40 towards the U-shape, my only hesitation and reason for being unsure is needing double the outputs to account for two ends of a pond :/ do you think it'll add a significant amount to the plumbing budget to do it this way?

    4. #4
      msegger is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2018
      Location
      St Louis, MO
      Posts
      150
      welcome - looking forward to your build. How deep and how close are you to the foundation of your home?

    5. #5
      EmeraldDragon's Avatar
      EmeraldDragon is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Depressed
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2021
      Location
      Walnut, California
      Posts
      725
      Quote Originally Posted by msegger View Post
      How deep?
      I think he's going for "all my trenches at 5' depth"

      EDIT: Oh BTW, Welcome to Koiphen, ginandtonic
      Last edited by EmeraldDragon; 05-03-2021 at 12:35 PM.
      -=[Sunny]=-

      I have served, I have fought to defends the rights and freedom for all Americans. I am a proud Retired Veteran!

      Zen's Pond and Garden - The Zen Zone that keeps our sanity alive every day!


    6. #6
      ginandtonic is offline Junior Member
      is in the pond planning phase
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2021
      Location
      Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
      Posts
      29
      Quote Originally Posted by msegger View Post
      welcome - looking forward to your build. How deep and how close are you to the foundation of your home?
      Thank you! It will be about 3' from my foundation, with the waterfall up against the foundation. The foundation is 20" above grade, and I'm only going for a 12-16" drop in the waterfall. The water will drop straight down and hit the water surface to get as deep of a noise as possible. We live on a busy street to drowning out the deep engines of sports cars racing around is key!

      Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldDragon View Post
      I think he's going for "all my trenches at 5' depth"

      EDIT: Oh BTW, Welcome to Koiphen, ginandtonic
      Thank you!! and correct, wondering if the plumbing needs to be below frost. The pond depth itself will be 42-48" with a just a few shelves for plants.

    7. #7
      ginandtonic is offline Junior Member
      is in the pond planning phase
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2021
      Location
      Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
      Posts
      29
      Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldDragon View Post
      EDIT: You might have the same concept pond as https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...lds-a-New-Pond, even though you are doing the U Shape on option #1.

      Interesting, what about them makes them similar to you? I wish I had the budget for an RDF haha!

    8. #8
      EmeraldDragon's Avatar
      EmeraldDragon is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Depressed
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2021
      Location
      Walnut, California
      Posts
      725
      Quote Originally Posted by ginandtonic View Post
      Interesting, what about them makes them similar to you? I wish I had the budget for an RDF haha!
      Haha! I don't have that kind of budget. I have a small budget, small pond and no spaces to put a big pond like your. If you are building that big of the pond, it's not bad looking into it. Or build your own RDF. https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...Filter-For-all
      Last edited by EmeraldDragon; 05-03-2021 at 03:25 PM.
      -=[Sunny]=-

      I have served, I have fought to defends the rights and freedom for all Americans. I am a proud Retired Veteran!

      Zen's Pond and Garden - The Zen Zone that keeps our sanity alive every day!


    9. #9
      ginandtonic is offline Junior Member
      is in the pond planning phase
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2021
      Location
      Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
      Posts
      29
      Ugh, did he ever end up finishing that? That's incredible. Unfortunately that level of DIY is out of my wheel house haha!

      Just sitting here wishing I din't have to run my lines so deep, otherwise I could route this system over to behind my shed and have significantly more flexibility.. right now 100% of the system needs to be concealed, hence the vortex buried beside the pond, and the pump under the deck, and the biofilter behind the waterfall and covered in rocks haha!

    10. #10
      ginandtonic is offline Junior Member
      is in the pond planning phase
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2021
      Location
      Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
      Posts
      29
      Hours on end of reading today and in turn, more questions lol..

      A) I'm thinking of adding a pressurized filter (aquascape 2000) between the vortex and pump, just as one more barrier to protect the biofilter at the falls. Gravity fed(OASE BioSmart 5000 Pond Filter) seemed to have better reviews , but there's no place for me to place the filter that would be higher than the falls.

      B) would it be possible to put a submersible pump in my vortex in the center in a 5gallon pail for example, that the water at the top of the vortex would spill in to? or am I risking something happening and the pump running dry? seems the submersibles are substantially cheaper than external.

    11. #11
      EmeraldDragon's Avatar
      EmeraldDragon is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Depressed
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2021
      Location
      Walnut, California
      Posts
      725
      Quote Originally Posted by ginandtonic View Post
      Hours on end of reading today and in turn, more questions lol..

      A) I'm thinking of adding a pressurized filter (aquascape 2000) between the vortex and pump, just as one more barrier to protect the biofilter at the falls. Gravity fed(OASE BioSmart 5000 Pond Filter) seemed to have better reviews , but there's no place for me to place the filter that would be higher than the falls.

      B) would it be possible to put a submersible pump in my vortex in the center in a 5gallon pail for example, that the water at the top of the vortex would spill in to? or am I risking something happening and the pump running dry? seems the submersibles are substantially cheaper than external.
      A) I am not sure which one you should buy, I am in between myself, I was going to get the OASE one but Batman told me that it is not worth getting it. A lot of maintenance work on your part in the future. I forgot ATM, but he recommended the one with the backwash, so it is easy to clean.

      B) There are some inexpensive pump that would do both. I have one, got it at Home Depot.

      And, yeah I understand you quite well on beautifying the area. I am currently trying to do it for my backyard. Tee Garden for my DW. A lot of hard work on hiding things. lol


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      -=[Sunny]=-

      I have served, I have fought to defends the rights and freedom for all Americans. I am a proud Retired Veteran!

      Zen's Pond and Garden - The Zen Zone that keeps our sanity alive every day!


    12. #12
      EmeraldDragon's Avatar
      EmeraldDragon is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Depressed
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2021
      Location
      Walnut, California
      Posts
      725
      Quote Originally Posted by ginandtonic View Post
      Ugh, did he ever end up finishing that? That's incredible. Unfortunately that level of DIY is out of my wheel house haha!

      Just sitting here wishing I din't have to run my lines so deep, otherwise I could route this system over to behind my shed and have significantly more flexibility.. right now 100% of the system needs to be concealed, hence the vortex buried beside the pond, and the pump under the deck, and the biofilter behind the waterfall and covered in rocks haha!
      Donít know if he did, but you could always do it in a smaller scale ;-)


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      -=[Sunny]=-

      I have served, I have fought to defends the rights and freedom for all Americans. I am a proud Retired Veteran!

      Zen's Pond and Garden - The Zen Zone that keeps our sanity alive every day!


    13. #13
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is online now Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is playing on Koiphen
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      32,586
      Quote Originally Posted by ginandtonic View Post
      Please let me know what you all think about this set-up. I'm trying to be as budget friendly as possible while still having quality filtration. I'm fine with occasional maintenance, gardening is one of my favourite hobbies so the pond will be no different. I'd rather avoid daily cleaning though! once a week or two is fine with me.
      Welcome and thanks for joining Koiphen!

      Long posts are hard to answer everything so I'll just pick a couple things that stand out to me.
      Both designs have a LOT of curves and turns for 1200 gallons, which is pretty small for koi. Are you going to use a liner?
      It'll be very difficult to get it to look good with so many curves in such a small area.

      A 3" BD needs 1500-2500 gph to stay clear of debris. A gravity flow skimmer needs a 3" pipe and still needs at least 1000 gph flow
      through it to work well. The 55 gallon vortex has a "speed" limit of about 2000 gph, meaning more flow than that and debris doesn't
      settle correctly. So I think you may have an issue with egress water and the vortex. You've got more water than your vortex can handle. You
      may think about having your skimmer bypass the vortex and go directly to the pump. If it has a leaf basket it may be enough of a prefilter
      to manage that. I think 2 BD's and/or 2 skimmers is over kill in a 1200 gallon pond and you need more filtration to handle all the water
      they'll send.

      Another option for dumping waste from the vortex would be to route a pipe from the bottom up and either use an air lift to dump it to
      waste or run it to another barrel where you could put a sub pump and dump it that way. I think it'd be a pain to have a sub pump in
      the vortex itself. I've seen others put theirs on a timer so it automatically dumps the vortex and an auto fill refills the water lost on
      its own.
      --Steve

    14. #14
      ginandtonic is offline Junior Member
      is in the pond planning phase
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2021
      Location
      Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
      Posts
      29
      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Welcome and thanks for joining Koiphen!

      Long posts are hard to answer everything so I'll just pick a couple things that stand out to me.
      Both designs have a LOT of curves and turns for 1200 gallons, which is pretty small for koi. Are you going to use a liner?
      It'll be very difficult to get it to look good with so many curves in such a small area.

      A 3" BD needs 1500-2500 gph to stay clear of debris. A gravity flow skimmer needs a 3" pipe and still needs at least 1000 gph flow
      through it to work well. The 55 gallon vortex has a "speed" limit of about 2000 gph, meaning more flow than that and debris doesn't
      settle correctly. So I think you may have an issue with egress water and the vortex. You've got more water than your vortex can handle. You
      may think about having your skimmer bypass the vortex and go directly to the pump. If it has a leaf basket it may be enough of a prefilter
      to manage that. I think 2 BD's and/or 2 skimmers is over kill in a 1200 gallon pond and you need more filtration to handle all the water
      they'll send.

      Another option for dumping waste from the vortex would be to route a pipe from the bottom up and either use an air lift to dump it to
      waste or run it to another barrel where you could put a sub pump and dump it that way. I think it'd be a pain to have a sub pump in
      the vortex itself. I've seen others put theirs on a timer so it automatically dumps the vortex and an auto fill refills the water lost on
      its own.
      Hi! Thanks a lot for the detailed reply. Thatís some great info that I would have totally not considered!

      Would it make sense since using a leaf basket in the skimmer, to have a separate submersible pump in it that does 1000gph and goes straight to the filter? Then have a 1500gph pump pulling through the pressurized filter and vortex?(vortex-pressure filter-pump-bio filter/falls)

      Iím not entirely sure Iíd have room for a second barrel to empty the vortex waste into before pumping :/

      As for the shape, itís going to be about as wide as it is deep, and ya I had been wondering about laying the liner on those tight curves.. leaning towards option B the more I read about ponds here.

    15. #15
      EmeraldDragon's Avatar
      EmeraldDragon is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Depressed
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2021
      Location
      Walnut, California
      Posts
      725
      Steve here, you are in good hands now.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      -=[Sunny]=-

      I have served, I have fought to defends the rights and freedom for all Americans. I am a proud Retired Veteran!

      Zen's Pond and Garden - The Zen Zone that keeps our sanity alive every day!


    16. #16
      ginandtonic is offline Junior Member
      is in the pond planning phase
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2021
      Location
      Ontario, Canada (Zone 5a)
      Posts
      29
      Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldDragon View Post
      Steve here, you are in good hands now.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Haha appreciate your input so far.

    17. #17
      EmeraldDragon's Avatar
      EmeraldDragon is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Depressed
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2021
      Location
      Walnut, California
      Posts
      725
      Quote Originally Posted by ginandtonic View Post
      Haha appreciate your input so far.
      No problems, any times.
      -=[Sunny]=-

      I have served, I have fought to defends the rights and freedom for all Americans. I am a proud Retired Veteran!

      Zen's Pond and Garden - The Zen Zone that keeps our sanity alive every day!


    18. #18
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is online now Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is playing on Koiphen
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      32,586
      Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldDragon View Post
      Steve here, you are in good hands now.


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      Naa, the more input the better. That's how forums work. Group think.

      Quote Originally Posted by ginandtonic View Post
      Hi! Thanks a lot for the detailed reply. Thatís some great info that I would have totally not considered!

      Would it make sense since using a leaf basket in the skimmer, to have a separate submersible pump in it that does 1000gph and goes straight to the filter? Then have a 1500gph pump pulling through the pressurized filter and vortex?(vortex-pressure filter-pump-bio filter/falls)

      Iím not entirely sure Iíd have room for a second barrel to empty the vortex waste into before pumping :/

      As for the shape, itís going to be about as wide as it is deep, and ya I had been wondering about laying the liner on those tight curves.. leaning towards option B the more I read about ponds here.
      I like to make skimmers do what skimmers do... skim.
      I like bio filters that do what they do. When you try to combine the two, sometimes it doesn't help either do what they're
      suppose to. In wall skimmers that just skim and have a basket are pretty cheap. When you get to "pond" skimmers that have
      all kind of "bio" stuff and room for a pump, they end up being $$$.

      Let's take a step back. Your pond is around 1200 gallons. How many fish do you see it holding? Koi or goldfish? Plants?

      The vortex: I've seen many different attempts at DIY'ing a 55 gallon barrel into a vortex shape. Not many are around today.
      The 55 gallon barrel is a wonderful thing. IMO it doesn't need a vortex shape to work. It's not big enough to require it and
      if you do manage to make an actual cone shape, you've probably lost a third of the 55 gallon capacity. I'd just use a standard
      barrel. Another thing is I love automation. The less I have to remember to do, the better. Iirc, Ci has a settling chamber (SC)
      that is on a timer and dumps on its own, so hopefully she'll chime in. Here's a couple of simple ideas:
      Name:  Air lift to waste.jpg
Views: 129
Size:  37.1 KB

      Name:  Sub pump to waste.jpg
Views: 128
Size:  31.7 KB

      I know you said you didn't have room for another barrel but it doesn't have to be a huge barrel.... just one big enough that
      the flow can fill faster than the pump can suck it dry. And the distance between the two isn't that critical if the pipe is pretty
      large. But everything needs to be on the same level to work. Just some things to think about.

      Remember that it's only 1200 gallons. It's easy to go nuts over filtration but when you go to the expense of "moving" water,
      you want to do as much filtering (mechanical and bio) as you can before you put it back in the pond to make it as efficient as
      possible. And how much you need really depends on how much of a fish load you'll be putting on it.
      --Steve

    19. #19
      EmeraldDragon's Avatar
      EmeraldDragon is online now Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Depressed
       
      Join Date
      Mar 2021
      Location
      Walnut, California
      Posts
      725
      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Naa, the more input the better. That's how forums work. Group think.
      That is so true.

      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I like to make skimmers do what skimmers do... skim.
      That reminds me, I have to put a skimmer in mine too. Never did put mine in when I built my Wooden Raised Pond. Stil work-In-Progress ya know...
      -=[Sunny]=-

      I have served, I have fought to defends the rights and freedom for all Americans. I am a proud Retired Veteran!

      Zen's Pond and Garden - The Zen Zone that keeps our sanity alive every day!


    20. #20
      *Ci*'s Avatar
      *Ci* is offline Senior Member
      is in winter mode
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2006
      Location
      Nanaimo, BC Canada
      Posts
      2,236
      I have a both a 150g and a 60g cone shaped vortex tank as Icu2 mentioned. Both have submersible trash pumps suspended in them and on timers to flush out what accumulates in the cone, for 15 sec. each, every 2 hours.

      I found pumps that I was able to use a 6Ē reducing Fernco to attach a 2Ē pipe stub to the bottom for more precise cone flushing:

      Name:  54E75F1D-CC5D-4A13-9A11-47E15E9F8BEE.jpeg
Views: 123
Size:  275.9 KB

      I also have my pond pumps suspended near the top. I prefer submersibles for the Ďquietí factor. My original Laguna 4200 is low wattage and has been running continuously for me for about 12years now. This photo is from when I first installed it. It has a Matala cartridge prefilter slipped onto the intake.

      Name:  1A32C3EC-FB05-4807-AACF-3E649E7CB0FE.jpeg
Views: 123
Size:  146.5 KB

      My vortex tanks are working well for me, but there are limitations. A settling chamber should be sized at 10% of flow, so a 55g will only settle decently at max. 550gph, my 150g would work for 1500gph, etc. Having a prefilter is important if you want to flow more, however, in the summer, I have to rinse it off once a day (granted, it only takes 2 min, but still has to be done). It does the job, though, as I am flowing 4000gph in the 150 and 2000gph in the 60. A lot of debris settles and gets flushed out, the rest gets caught in the prefilter.
      Last edited by *Ci*; 05-04-2021 at 06:37 PM.
      ________________________________________
      Cheers,
      Ci


    Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •