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    Thread: Using second pond as water change cycling / filtration system

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      Lightbulb Using second pond as water change cycling / filtration system

      OK! Since I have moved my Koi from my DW old Lily Pond, and it's currently almost half empty (trying to clean it out because of all the dirt the Koi dug out from all the Lily pots).

      I have knowns for years that places like the Golf Course (etc...) that have ponds uses 2 different ponds (maybe more, I don't know) to cycle and changed out their water. I want to use that concept (like I mention earlier in my other post) to connect 2 ponds with one Filtration System. But this time, I might ended up using two Filtration System (the new one that I am going to build and the old one have) to accommodates how this system will works.

      Can anyone shred some light on what is the best way of setting it up?

      I have an idea of how, but not sure if it will work well. It's like a daisy chain from pond to filtration back to pond. But I want to see other options of what I can do. Thanks in advance!
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      Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldDragon View Post
      OK! Since I have moved my Koi from my DW old Lily Pond, and it's currently almost half empty (trying to clean it out because of all the dirt the Koi dug out from all the Lily pots).

      I have knowns for years that places like the Golf Course (etc...) that have ponds uses 2 different ponds (maybe more, I don't know) to cycle and changed out their water. I want to use that concept (like I mention earlier in my other post) to connect 2 ponds with one Filtration System. But this time, I might ended up using two Filtration System (the new one that I am going to build and the old one have) to accommodates how this system will works.

      Can anyone shred some light on what is the best way of setting it up?

      I have an idea of how, but not sure if it will work well. It's like a daisy chain from pond to filtration back to pond. But I want to see other options of what I can do. Thanks in advance!
      Are the golf courses treating the water and reusing it? If so how are they treating it?
      I thought they were mainly retention ponds to control surface water.

      So in your design would the extra pond's water be used for water changes? Or what is
      it's purpose? I'm confused. Roddy saved the pond water he ended up with after
      a water change... treated it... and then use it in the pond again. I've never tried it but he
      swore by it. Here's a quick overview of his method but there are others that go more in depth
      if that's what you're looking for:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...61#post1114761

      Whole thread:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...-water-changes
      --Steve



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      Often golf courses pump water and circulate to keep the ponds looking nice. A lot of chemicals and fertilizers are used on golf courses. Some remote ponds are irrigation/water make up sources.

      I think a few people have created separate tanks for batch treating pond water with PP and then reused for water change. Never seen long term reports how high nitrates get. Possible a planted tank could be used for water conditioning and storage for use as needed. Local fish farm has a water return pond planted with yellow flag iris and cattails. Easier to create a low maintence flow through bog or anoxic filter. Wouldn't have to be 100% of pond flows.
      Last edited by batman; 04-24-2021 at 12:55 PM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Are the golf courses treating the water and reusing it? If so how are they treating it?
      I thought they were mainly retention ponds to control surface water.

      So in your design would the extra pond's water be used for water changes? Or what is
      it's purpose? I'm confused. Roddy saved the pond water he ended up with after
      a water change... treated it... and then use it in the pond again. I've never tried it but he
      swore by it. Here's a quick overview of his method but there are others that go more in depth
      if that's what you're looking for:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...61#post1114761

      Whole thread:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...-water-changes
      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      Often golf courses pump water and circulate to keep the ponds looking nice. A lot of chemicals and fertilizers are used on golf courses. Some remote ponds are irrigation/water make up sources.

      I think a few people have created separate tanks for batch treating pond water with PP and then reused for water change. Never seen long term reports how high nitrates get. Possible a planted tank could be used for water conditioning and storage for use as needed. Local fish farm has a water return pond planted with yellow flag iris and cattails. Easier to create a low maintence flow through bog or anoxic filter. Wouldn't have to be 100% of pond flows.
      Bingo! I think Batman hit the nail on the head. That was the concept I had, and I done it last week for about a day. My problems was controlling the water flows from both ponds, since both of my pumps are not the same (and it's a pain in the butt adjusting them to have the same output rates). Either the Koi Pond would starts filling up or the Lily Pond would. (I need to get the same pump, if I am going to try that again. So it will pump at the same rates).

      At the time, I also might have connected the filter on the wrong end too. The supposed maintenance pond water was a lot more clearer than the Koi Pond.

      I was trying to use my DW Lily pond that housed all the plants that I will do a lot more of the water changes, etc... to be the treating pond and water condition.

      Anyhow, It's on to the filtration problem for now. I needs to figure out what to do with my 50gal drum for my filter, I want to do the K1/K2 type filter with the pump inside the filter. But I don't know how will it works as far a the flows. I know the output will works, but the waterflows from the pond retro BD (when I put it in, since the pump is not connected to it). How does it suck the water into the filtration?
      Last edited by EmeraldDragon; 04-26-2021 at 10:26 AM.
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      Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldDragon View Post

      Anyhow, It's on to the filtration problem for now. I needs to figure out what to do with my 50gal drum for my filter, I want to do the K1/K2 type filter with the pump inside the filter. But I don't know how will it works as far a the flows. I know the output will works, but the waterflows from the pond retro BD (when I put it in, since the pump is not connected to it). How does it suck the water into the filtration?
      Gravity. The pond is connected to the barrel via the BD pipe so at rest the water level is equal in both.
      When you turn on the pump in the barrel it will draw down the water level in the barrel and consequently
      the pond will try to fill it back to be the same level as is in the pond, causing water to flow from the pond
      to the barrel. The pipe size between the pond and barrel needs to be large enough to keep up with the
      pump in the barrel or you may empty the barrel because the water can't flow fast enough between the two.
      --Steve



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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Gravity. The pond is connected to the barrel via the BD pipe so at rest the water level is equal in both.
      When you turn on the pump in the barrel it will draw down the water level in the barrel and consequently
      the pond will try to fill it back to be the same level as is in the pond, causing water to flow from the pond
      to the barrel. The pipe size between the pond and barrel needs to be large enough to keep up with the
      pump in the barrel or you may empty the barrel because the water can't flow fast enough between the two.
      Ahh! I think I am getting it.

      How far the pipe has to go down the barrel? To the bottom? If the input to the barrel is 3" and the output to the pond is 2", would that be large enough pipe size between the pond and barrel?
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      Name:  FilterDiagram.jpg
Views: 76
Size:  52.9 KB

      Here is what I think, after what you told me and to my understanding of what it should be.
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      Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldDragon View Post
      Ahh! I think I am getting it.

      How far the pipe has to go down the barrel? To the bottom? If the input to the barrel is 3" and the output to the pond is 2", would that be large enough pipe size between the pond and barrel?
      I'm not sure what design you're using for the barrel, but entering near the bottom gives you a lot
      of flexibility. You can always enter the bottom and put a 90* on it and raise it up towards the top for
      a down flow type design if need be.
      The size of the pipe from the pond to the barrel depends on how far the barrel will be from the pond,
      how complex the route will be, and how many gph your pump flows to the pond. 90*s and such cause
      more head so harder for the water to reach the barrel. If you're pumping from the barrel the pipe size
      doesn't really matter; it's more about how many gph does the pump flow.

      Edit: Sorry, I missed the drawing. That looks like it should be fine with the note that the design you use
      for a BD needs to have an opening at least as large as the area of the 3" pipe or it could restrict the flow.
      And the pump size again matters for the size of the pipe. 3" should be safe for 2000-2500 gph though and
      probably more with more draw down in the filter barrel... but the less draw down the better. You need a
      way to keep the media away from the pump inlet too. That often restricts the amount you can flow with
      a moving bed style filter.
      --Steve



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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I'm not sure what design you're using for the barrel, but entering near the bottom gives you a lot
      of flexibility. You can always enter the bottom and put a 90* on it and raise it up towards the top for
      a down flow type design if need be.
      The size of the pipe from the pond to the barrel depends on how far the barrel will be from the pond,
      how complex the route will be, and how many gph your pump flows to the pond. 90*s and such cause
      more head so harder for the water to reach the barrel. If you're pumping from the barrel the pipe size
      doesn't really matter; it's more about how many gph does the pump flow.

      Edit: Sorry, I missed the drawing. That looks like it should be fine with the note that the design you use
      for a BD needs to have an opening at least as large as the area of the 3" pipe or it could restrict the flow.
      And the pump size again matters for the size of the pipe. 3" should be safe for 2000-2500 gph though and
      probably more with more draw down in the filter barrel... but the less draw down the better. You need a
      way to keep the media away from the pump inlet too. That often restricts the amount you can flow with
      a moving bed style filter.
      I actually was going to designs the filter to enter from the top with the waterflows going either left or right once it goes into the barrel. So, the water will swirl around in circle creating a whirlpool to put all the waste and other things it pull to the bottom. (in designs, see picture) I was asking about the incoming water pipe to the barrel that how far it should go down. The Retro BD will be pretty big enough to accommodates the flows. It will be similar to with Ci did to her tank with a little bit of changes on my end.

      I have two different pumps one is at 1450gph, and the other (older one) I think it was at about the same or maybe a little bit faster. I am not sure. I don't have the info on it, it seems to pump faster than the other one.

      With 2000 - 2500, through or maybe more that would be great if my filter can turnover that. It would be way overkill for my pond, but I know I won't have to worry about filtration on it.
      Attached Images Attached Images  
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      First, the way you have the pipe run into the barrel won't work with gravity flow.
      The pipe must remain below pond level. Gravity flow won't work if you go
      above pond level unless you can create siphon, which I personally haven't
      ever tried to use.
      And if you kept the pipe below pond level and entered the barrel at that upper level,
      you'll be limited to how much it will flow. The gravity flow rate between the pond
      and the barrel is based on how much difference you can create between
      the two bodies of water. If you go into the top and you need to flow more, you can't.
      Here's a drawing:

      Name:  Image1.jpg
Views: 72
Size:  40.6 KB

      Hypothetical...
      Say your pump ends up flowing 2000 gpp and the draw down reaches the level of the red dotted line (the entry level of the pipe).
      All is well. But next year you decide you need to flow another 500 gph. You can't, because you can't create the difference in levels
      to flow the extra amount. If you come in from the bottom (like the green line) you can still have the water enter near the top but if
      you need to flow more you can just change the height of the pipe.
      --Steve



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      I was afraid you were going to say that, and yeah I was looking at siphoning earlier. But the waterflows not going to be as good, and I will also have to extends the distance between the example from 3" to about at least 2' (maybe more) and still have the siphon to works. So, I don't think I am going to go for that.

      I think your way is better solutions, to go from the bottom up. And have the pipe goes up as high as 80% of the barrel. (more or less) I just don't know if I am ready to cut the hole on the barrel (to the right size, of course). I am pretty sure once I get into it. It will be easy.
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      Gravity K1/K2 Filter Diagram Updates

      Name:  FillDiagramGravityFilter.jpg
Views: 57
Size:  61.1 KB
      OK, Here is the updates to the whole thing with the looks of how everything is connected. Just wanted to makes sure before I jumped in (buy parts) and do all the cutting and putting things together.

      Quick question, I know it might be a little bit stupid to ask. Looking at where the wastes are right now in the pond. The lowest point of the pond is at one corner, but there are some wastes also sitting at the other corner of the pond also. Should I put the Retro BD at that corner? Or should I put it in the middle of the pond? The pond is pretty much square (almost) [5' W x 6' L x 30" H].
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      Per our PM conversations, what you have drawn above won't work for a gravity-fed setup as the lines cannot go above the water level as the siphon will eventually break.

      Here's a simplistic diagram of gravity fed vs pump fed. If cutting into the sides of the pond and barrel are not an option, you will need to resort to pump-fed and have the water gravity-flow back into the pond.

      ~ Jose

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      Name:  2pondsmaintenance.jpg
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      If that is the case, and since I rather not cut into the pond (didn't want to risks ruining it, and I know I will). I will have to go with pump fed option like before. So, back to the two ponds options again. I did tried it before and it works, but since I have two different brands of pumps and they both have different gph rates. It was hard to adjust the flows to be equal on both side. Either Koi Pond would filled up or Lily Pond would.

      Not sure if the water level is the problems or not, the smaller pond is only about 21" deep and the Koi pond is at about 27" at times. That's about 6" different, but the smaller pond does have about 4" (more or less) of space of height under it. It's a square container.
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      Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldDragon View Post
      Name:  2pondsmaintenance.jpg
Views: 55
Size:  46.2 KB

      If that is the case, and since I rather not cut into the pond (didn't want to risks ruining it, and I know I will). I will have to go with pump fed option like before. So, back to the two ponds options again. I did tried it before and it works, but since I have two different brands of pumps and they both have different gph rates. It was hard to adjust the flows to be equal on both side. Either Koi Pond would filled up or Lily Pond would.

      Not sure if the water level is the problems or not, the smaller pond is only about 21" deep and the Koi pond is at about 27" at times. That's about 6" different, but the smaller pond does have about 4" (more or less) of space of height under it. It's a square container.
      You won't be able to use a pump to take water out of the pond then use another pump to move water back into the pond. You can only have 1 pump. Where the pump goes depends on your gravity or pump fed setup. Even if you get 2 identical pumps, the flow rates will never be the same because of differences in head created by using different lengths of pipe and different fittings, head pressure, etc. You will never be able to maintain equilibrium between the two.
      ~ Jose

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      Ahh I see. No wonder I was having problems with the test run. I guess I won’t be doing it then. Pump fed the way your picture showed and I didn’t see it earlier. lol. I just saw that just now. But as it is I have to either modified my pump or find the one that will work outside the pond.


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      Quote Originally Posted by EmeraldDragon View Post
      Ahh I see. No wonder I was having problems with the test run. I guess I won’t be doing it then. Pump fed the way your picture showed and I didn’t see it earlier. lol. I just saw that just now. But as it is I have to either modified my pump or find the one that will work outside the pond.


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      That was just an example using an external pump. If you have a submersible pump, that will work too. Simply place it inside the pond after it pulls the water from the BD.
      ~ Jose

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      Quote Originally Posted by jcardona1 View Post
      That was just an example using an external pump. If you have a submersible pump, that will work too. Simply place it inside the pond after it pulls the water from the BD.
      I think mine will work on both.

      Ooh, that gave me an idea for the Retro BD. I will have to draw up the diagram thou to see if it will work. Still, needs to figure out how to remedy my filter situation. I might go with a smaller size container and different type of filter method. Not sure which yet.


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