• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
    Results 1 to 20 of 32

    Thread: Koi Gradually dying - any ideas?

    1. #1
      neyfn is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      25

      Koi Gradually dying - any ideas?

      Hi All,

      i have had some small koi dying gradually over the last few weeks.

      about 6 weeks ago i changed my pump and added a filter to an existing system. Initially it was just two separate DIY box filters being fed by a submersible pump and filled with various media and led to two waterfalls. wanting to keep the helpful bacteria, i let the filter media muck up a bit and didnt clean it out. i changed my pump then a week later, added a uvc bio pressure canister filter thing before my diy filter box, still didnt clean the filter media as i wanted to keep all the bacteria.

      i have 3 koi between 40cm and 30cm, about 20 koi between 4cm and 15cm and 12 roughly 10cm goldfish. ive had no issues with fish interaction, no strange behaviour etc.
      about 2 weeks after changing the pump and adding more filtration i lost 3 fish, completely disappeared over night i was very confused as the day before they seemed happy and healthy with no adverse behaviour and so assumed it was a bird who had suddenly braved my bird hating dog and flew under my patio area for lunch. i haven't had a bird issue in 2 years since i've had the pond so figured it was a one off. two days later, another one missing.

      this week, one fish was flashing excessively, i have had a fair bit of rain and it was right after feeding so i put it down to some water change and food crumbs in the gills, next day he was gone.
      just today i have had another fish constantly flashing until he was too exhausted to swim. ive put him in a separate bucket with water, some salt and his own air stone to see how he goes over night.

      since ive lost a few recently, im thinking the deaths are all related and the other fish have just been gobbling up the bodies.

      i have had some minor flashing in the past after adding water but it always disappears pretty quickly and is random across the pond.
      i realised my salt levels are probably pretty low to non existant. though water quality has been consistent and not shown any issues or changes aside form some heavy rain this week.
      i have two waterfalls, some plants and two large disc air stones so i dont think oxygen is an issue.
      i do not have access to a microscope or know anything about scrapes.
      the goldfish seem unaffected.

      Any ideas or suggestions?

      Thankyou, your considerations are much appreciated.

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    2. #2
      ademink's Avatar
      ademink is offline Senior Member~~Moderator
      is still doing this pond thing.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Indianapolis, IN
      Posts
      3,289
      What are your testing numbers for:
      pH
      KH
      Ammonia
      Nitrites

      Salt is not necessary in a normal pond environment so that is not the issue.
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

    3. #3
      neyfn is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      25
      ph is either about 7.5 or 8.0 ... but not 7.8 the two colours on my kit are really close together so i struggle to tell between them, maybe closer to the 8.0?
      ammonia 0
      nitrite 0
      nitrate 0

      i dont have kh test


      .....should all of those be 0?

    4. #4
      ademink's Avatar
      ademink is offline Senior Member~~Moderator
      is still doing this pond thing.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Indianapolis, IN
      Posts
      3,289
      I've never had my koi eat the others that have died. Goldfish can be a bit more "forward" with that kind of behavior but my guess is that you either have a visiting bird or some other animal that pulls them out after they are dead and floating. My suspicion is that you have an issue with fluctuating/crashing pH. Without a proper high range pH tester and a KH testing kit, it's hard to say for sure. KH levels will tell us how close you are to crashing.

      The alternative to at least get us going is to test pH morning and evening to see if it is swinging but with test strips and wide range pH kits, there isn't enough detail to tell for sure.

      Any chance of you getting some updated testing kits?
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

    5. #5
      richtoybox's Avatar
      richtoybox is offline Administrator
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      14,345
      Fish being lost like in missing, not in like dying, is almost always due to predators, birds, raccoons, or other fishers. I have had fish sucked into pumps, but they rarely or never went through the pump toward the filter, clogging the pump, making for extremely slow flow in the system. I have also had fish jump out of a new to them pond, where the water was not the same as they have been used to, but that was limited to the two fish on their first day of being in the pond.
      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    6. #6
      neyfn is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      25
      yes i was thinking about that trying to narrow down options. i dont have any wildlife in my area except birds and the majority are not meat eaters. the birds are of course a possibility though i hadn't had any birds coming in to my pond since ive had it for about 2 years so ive been thinking more along the fish health area. i cant stop birds but at least if i stay focused on pond/fish health i can try not to miss anything there.

      at least the last two fish issues of constant flashing were concerning me.

    7. #7
      neyfn is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      25
      to add. i spent a lot of time looking around the pond for jumpers, and once i did have a fish eaten by a pump but thats definitely not a possibilty now.

    8. #8
      richtoybox's Avatar
      richtoybox is offline Administrator
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      14,345
      The flashing is either water quality issues, low KH causing/allowing wide swings in pH morning to evening, or ammonia, one or both causing skin irritation, or it is parasites. If it is parasites, not knowing what is available in your country, the primary treatment here is a product that has a combination of formalin and malachite green, which will take care of most of the microscopic parasites, except flukes, and for flukes a product containing flubendazole ( a sheep wormer). The other parasites are visible and generally not seen as often as the microscopic parasites.
      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    9. #9
      neyfn is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      25
      ok great, thanks so much. ill get a kh test and then ill go from there, if my kh is good ill start focusing on a possible parasite issue.

    10. #10
      neyfn is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      25
      NITRATE UPDATE

      ok so i haven't tested my kh, but i retested today (without rushing) and remembered that the nitrate test needs a bit more finesse. turns out i have a big nitrate issue.

      so far my short term plan is some immediate water change, and more partial water changes in the next few days. with some stress coat and the only de nitrifying product i could find in my area which is api nitro-zorb or something like that, its a granulated pouch you put in your filter and clean and recharges every so often.

      my middle to longer term plan is to add some more plants. is there anything else that anyone would reccommend i do?

      as i mentioned earlier, i was scared of giving myself some new pond syndrome when adding new pump and filter, so i hadnt cleaned out my box filter. even though it didnt seem massively gunked up, im thinking this has contributed to my nitrate issues?

      some good news though, is that my last dying fish has improved a lot. separated him with his own oxygen supply and lots of fresh water. he looks weak but no flashing for the moment and is swimming much closer to normal.

      again, thankyou all so much for your help.

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    11. #11
      coolwon is offline Senior Member
      is Garfield is my name DIY is my
      game
       
      Feeling:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2016
      Location
      Durban South Africa
      Posts
      3,739
      Have you added any new fish recently?

      KHV herpes virus?

      Dead fish,generally have a pinched nose and sunken eyes.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    12. #12
      neyfn is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      25
      yes i added a couple small koi (roughly 3") a while ago, but only after my first one dissappeared

      but as any dead fish have disappeared almost before i could even notice any strange behaviour im not sure what symptoms they had

      not sure what khv is but ill do some research.

      thanks for your input

    13. #13
      neyfn is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      25
      nope. im in australia. apparently we dont have any KHV here.

    14. #14
      richtoybox's Avatar
      richtoybox is offline Administrator
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      14,345
      Quote Originally Posted by neyfn View Post
      NITRATE UPDATE

      ok so i haven't tested my kh, but i retested today (without rushing) and remembered that the nitrate test needs a bit more finesse. turns out i have a big nitrate issue.

      so far my short term plan is some immediate water change, and more partial water changes in the next few days. with some stress coat and the only de nitrifying product i could find in my area which is api nitro-zorb or something like that, its a granulated pouch you put in your filter and clean and recharges every so often.

      my middle to longer term plan is to add some more plants. is there anything else that anyone would reccommend i do?

      as i mentioned earlier, i was scared of giving myself some new pond syndrome when adding new pump and filter, so i hadnt cleaned out my box filter. even though it didnt seem massively gunked up, im thinking this has contributed to my nitrate issues?

      some good news though, is that my last dying fish has improved a lot. separated him with his own oxygen supply and lots of fresh water. he looks weak but no flashing for the moment and is swimming much closer to normal.

      again, thankyou all so much for your help.
      The API Nitro-zorb is zeolite, an ammonia sponge that removes ammonia from the pond. It takes quite a bit as it will fill quite quickly with the amount of ammonia that could be present in a pond, due to size. It is regenerated by placing it in high level salt content salt water. If it is in the pond when salt is added for any reason, it will release large amounts of ammonia into the pond, potentially killing the fish. With the ammonia bound up in that product, it is not available to the bio bacteria for conversion, causing reduced good bacteria populations. It is good for small QT systems that do not have cycled filters for short term applications.

      You say your nitrates are high, but you don't say how high, and I am assuming you are talking nitrates, not nitrites. Nitrates are the final stage of the ammonia cycle, where ammonia is converted by bacteria to nitrite, and then nitrite is converted by another bacteria to nitrate. Except through some anoxic reactions that will convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas which can be blown off, there is no way to reduce the nitrates except through water changes. The population of fish, size of fish, amount of food, all contribute to ammonia production and the ammonia eating bacteria population should be large enough to keep the ammonia test reading very near zero. There will always be a certain background level due to fish being in the pond instead of in the filter, but you should not be able to detect it with the drop type tests. The nitrite that is produced then will be converted by a population of bacteria that is sized to the amount of nitrite present, and again, it should be very near zero, but the total amount of ammonia produced by the fish will affect the total amount of nitrate in the end. I am not aware of anyone that has a zero value or even close for nitrates. My ponds with 10 to 15% water change weekly would run with a nitrate level of about 60ppm, which some would say was excessive, but because the nitrates are not that toxic, I did not see any effect on the fish. I could have gotten the nitrate down to maybe 30ppm by doing 25% water changes weekly, or reducing the population of fish by 50% but neither were options that I wanted to do.
      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    15. #15
      neyfn is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      25
      yikes ok, nitro zorb out.

      yes after testing, definitely nitrAtes. i find it a bit hard to read the colours but it was at least 80+ maybe over 100ppm.

      i lose a bit of water due to an inefficient waterfall design and so generally add a bit of water each week. so i havent thought about actually doing any water changes. should i have been doing semi regular water changes for my standard maintenance on top of this?

      i started doing some gradual water changes, and had to stop because i went away this weekend. on coming back, one new dead fish and one puffed and showing dropsy. am i right in thinking thats always some sort of negative bacteria or parasite issue? could this be nitrates related?

    16. #16
      neyfn is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      25
      im getting more worried about my pond, as im doing more research, im guessing that the nitrates are just a water change, test regularly and problem solved. however, now that i have a little swimming pinecone and a side swimmer im assuming i have a fair bit more going on.

      thanks so much for your continued advice.

    17. #17
      richtoybox's Avatar
      richtoybox is offline Administrator
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      Awesome
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2005
      Location
      Sandston, VA
      Posts
      14,345
      Yes, for Nitrates, it is just the size of the water changes that controls the level.

      Yes, your pinecone and laying over fish are most likely suffering from bacterial infections. The cause of the bacterial infections are generally parasites or other forms of wounds allowing bacteria into the fish. Parasites generally do not cause a problem on fish that are not stressed, so water quality is a big issue.

      For bacterial infections, it is best to use antibiotics. Where you are, I doubt if Tricide Neo or Neocide 3 are available. These are a powder form of a triple antibiotic designed for use as a bath. Our https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ive-Discussion Sections 17, 18, and 19 cover sedation and injectible antibiotics, if you can find them. They work better than the bath, which works better than taking a fish out, sedating, drying the wounds, and applying Triple Antibiotic Ointment. The latter is last resort. There is also Oxolinic acid which may be more readily available.
      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    18. #18
      neyfn is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      25
      Ok. Thank you. I so appreciate this forum and all your help.

      I’ll do some research as to what options I have.
      I can’t see any wounds on my fish as of yet.
      Would it not make sense to treat my whole pond? Will the infection be reduced to those showing symptoms or will it be a pond wide problem and only a few are a bit more advanced in severity?

    19. #19
      neyfn is offline Junior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jan 2021
      Location
      Western Australia
      Posts
      25
      i think specific antibiotics will be hard to get my hands on or at least takes some time to source them. i know my local pet store has melafix and pimafix as at least part of a pond treatment for bacterial infection but looking a bit online it seems some swear by it and many find it useless and even has negative effects on the pond. any reccommendations here?

    20. #20
      ademink's Avatar
      ademink is offline Senior Member~~Moderator
      is still doing this pond thing.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Indianapolis, IN
      Posts
      3,289
      The consensus of healthcare forum members is that it is ineffective and can actually cause issues since it is an oil and can coat the gills of the fish.
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member

      • Remove Ads
        Advertising from Google
        Promoting Koi and Pond
        keeping since 2007

         

    Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Tags for this Thread

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •