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  • Results 1 to 19 of 19

    Thread: Scaleless Koi flashing after Performagreen treatment...

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      headman is offline Senior Member
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      Scaleless Koi flashing after Performagreen treatment...

      Hello,

      Scaleless Koi flashing after Performagreen treatment (formalin, Malachite Green and Trichlorfon). I have only treated once and the second is supposed to be tomorrow. She is acting a little odd ... laying around some ... sinking down the side.... flashing on the liner. I did about a 30% water change after treatment

    2. #2
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      I am not familiar with any treatment directions on this product, but the similar Proform-C recommends a 25% water change before each of the three treatments, not after, as the treatment takes some time to become spent, and a water change would just dilute the treatment. I don't know if the fishes behavior is continuing or not, but it is fairly common for a fish to exhibit some distress with the treatment as the parasites try to burrow deeper to get away from the chemicals that are trying to kill them. This is generally very temporary, lasting just a short time before those parasites are dead.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Thank you ... it does say to not use with scaleless fish ... dang it....I guess I need to learn how to read the entire label..... it is a minimum of 25% for this product. Iíll post a pic of their directions. Itís super simple... My pond is about 5200 so I used 2 bottles and 6 tsp.... I didnít want to over do it. This is my first time treating the pond with any treatment in 3 years and would like to get into a spring and fall routine. I normally use salt during those times but not always... up to .6%. Im changing some water again just in case itís just to much for her.
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      Last edited by headman; 3 Weeks Ago at 08:07 PM.

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      I was not familiar with the triclorfon and had to look it up and what it was good for. It is added to that product to take care of flukes, and potentially fish lice and anchor worm. Questionable on those last two. It is an organophosphate, like malathion, and is sensitive to water hardness. In soft water it can be dangerous, and in hard water may need multiple dosing. Organophosphates are know to be fatal to Orfr and Rudd, per Doc Johnson. For flukes, I prefer treating them with Prazi or Fluke M, which are much safer for the fish. For the anchor worm and fish lice I prefer Dimilin, again much safer.

      As for scaleless fish, versus scaled fish, I don't know whether that applies to scaleless koi as I believe koi skin is koi skin and it covers scales in the scaled koi, but if it destroyed the skin of one it would destroy the skin of the other. Now catfish skin may be significantly different. I never changed dosages for my ponds because of doitsu koi in the ponds.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Quote Originally Posted by headman View Post
      Hello,

      Scaleless Koi flashing after Performagreen treatment (formalin, Malachite Green and Trichlorfon). I have only treated once and the second is supposed to be tomorrow. She is acting a little odd ... laying around some ... sinking down the side.... flashing on the liner. I did about a 30% water change after treatment

      Try and get some air,lots of air or a spare pond pump, breaking up the surface water.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      Try and get some air,lots of air or a spare pond pump, breaking up the surface water.
      I have a 80 lpm going atm

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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      I was not familiar with the triclorfon and had to look it up and what it was good for. It is added to that product to take care of flukes, and potentially fish lice and anchor worm. Questionable on those last two. It is an organophosphate, like malathion, and is sensitive to water hardness. In soft water it can be dangerous, and in hard water may need multiple dosing. Organophosphates are know to be fatal to Orfr and Rudd, per Doc Johnson. For flukes, I prefer treating them with Prazi or Fluke M, which are much safer for the fish. For the anchor worm and fish lice I prefer Dimilin, again much safer.

      As for scaleless fish, versus scaled fish, I don't know whether that applies to scaleless koi as I believe koi skin is koi skin and it covers scales in the scaled koi, but if it destroyed the skin of one it would destroy the skin of the other. Now catfish skin may be significantly different. I never changed dosages for my ponds because of doitsu koi in the ponds.
      Thank you Rich... You always have great information

    8. #8
      coolwon is online now Senior Member
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      Some individual fish are sensitive or allergic to some medications.

      It doesn't agree with them.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

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      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      Some individual fish are sensitive or allergic to some medications.

      It doesn't agree with them.
      Unfortunately... I did do a water change again late lastnight/this morning so we’ll see how she does today. Most of the meds should be gone.

    10. #10
      montwila's Avatar
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      The original strength Proform-C seemed to affect Doitsu fish more than scaled fish. Especially if water changes were not done between treatments. This appears to be a similar product.

      Why Doitsu? The blood capillaries are right below the slime coat and like us humans chemicals can be absorbed directly through the dermis layer (skin) into the fish's blood. Scaled fish have just that little bit "thicker skin" as their dermis contains the scales and so the blood vessel (capilaries) are just a little farther distant from the chemicals in the water. Or not quite as much surface area in direct contact with the water. However both (scaled and none scaled) fish have gills and take water into their digestive tract. Thus Doitsu fish may be faster at absorbing chemicals from the water but at some point both types will or should have received about the same dose.

      Doitsu also seem to take on anesthesia faster than scaled fish.

      However all fish are individuals as pointed out above. Some of the Doitsu I have had are more sensitive to medications than others, as with my scaled fish.

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      Quote Originally Posted by montwila View Post
      The original strength Proform-C seemed to affect Doitsu fish more than scaled fish. Especially if water changes were not done between treatments. This appears to be a similar product.

      Why Doitsu? The blood capillaries are right below the slime coat and like us humans chemicals can be absorbed directly through the dermis layer (skin) into the fish's blood. Scaled fish have just that little bit "thicker skin" as their dermis contains the scales and so the blood vessel (capilaries) are just a little farther distant from the chemicals in the water. Or not quite as much surface area in direct contact with the water. However both (scaled and none scaled) fish have gills and take water into their digestive tract. Thus Doitsu fish may be faster at absorbing chemicals from the water but at some point both types will or should have received about the same dose.

      Doitsu also seem to take on anesthesia faster than scaled fish.

      However all fish are individuals as pointed out above. Some of the Doitsu I have had are more sensitive to medications than others, as with my scaled fish.
      Is this permit or something she needs to bounce back from?

    12. #12
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      My experience has been very few things except death and major scarring are permanent when it comes to the fish. They bounce back from almost anything that doesn't kill them.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      She is just laying around on the bottom ... not eating today. Sometimes she will swim fast and the rub the side of the pond liner. I’ll do another water change tomorrow

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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      I am not familiar with any treatment directions on this product, but the similar Proform-C recommends a 25% water change before each of the three treatments, not after, as the treatment takes some time to become spent, and a water change would just dilute the treatment. I don't know if the fishes behavior is continuing or not, but it is fairly common for a fish to exhibit some distress with the treatment as the parasites try to burrow deeper to get away from the chemicals that are trying to kill them. This is generally very temporary, lasting just a short time before those parasites are dead.
      Will there be an issue since I didnít do the second treatment? Will the parasites continue to burrow deeper ? Should I take the Doitsu out and treat the other koi over again? Maybe I should get a safer treatment

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      Someone has stringy poop after the treatment.
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      Last edited by headman; 3 Weeks Ago at 06:32 PM.

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      I would look for the Proform C, or Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment, both of which are similar formulations and treat. I just don't have any knowledge of the product that you are using. I do know that Proform C has been reported as safe at up to 25% over dose, but that is in a measured volume pond. Are you sure of the volume of your pond, as in measured during fill, or using the salinity change method of determining actual volume or are you using the length/width/depth method. Length/width/depth method can be off by a significant amount due to rounded corners, shelves, sloped sides, and the smaller actual volume results in significant overdose.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      I would look for the Proform C, or Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment, both of which are similar formulations and treat. I just don't have any knowledge of the product that you are using. I do know that Proform C has been reported as safe at up to 25% over dose, but that is in a measured volume pond. Are you sure of the volume of your pond, as in measured during fill, or using the salinity change method of determining actual volume or are you using the length/width/depth method. Length/width/depth method can be off by a significant amount due to rounded corners, shelves, sloped sides, and the smaller actual volume results in significant overdose.
      I will look into those two treatments... We use the length/width/depth method. My side walls are pretty straight until the bottom when it curves in. I do have a gallon meter to put on my hose but if I don’t do an 100% water change how can I get an accurate reading? I just double checked a few weeks ago by measuring the pond again before I treated. I came up with 5107 US gallons. I did round it up to 5200 for the water in the 3 X 55 gallon barrel and the pipes. Maybe I should lower it to 5000 instead.

    18. #18
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      Quote Originally Posted by headman View Post
      I will look into those two treatments... We use the length/width/depth method. My side walls are pretty straight until the bottom when it curves in. I do have a gallon meter to put on my hose but if I donít do an 100% water change how can I get an accurate reading? I just double checked a few weeks ago by measuring the pond again before I treated. I came up with 5107 US gallons. I did round it up to 5200 for the water in the 3 X 55 gallon barrel and the pipes. Maybe I should lower it to 5000 instead.
      Since Proform C and BSDT are pretty forgiving on exact dosage, I'd wait to do this till after treatment and the
      health issues are better under control, since iirc Proform C recommends no salt and BSDT recommends no more than
      .15%...

      But you can get an estimate of pond volume with salt. Use this calculator at the top of the forum under "Koi Calculators":

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/koicalcs.php?do=calcsalt

      Get a digital salinity meter and measure your salt level in the pond before starting (don't assume it's 0).

      Add salt at a rate of 1 lb. per 100 gallons of estimated pond volume (so in your case lets guess the pond is 5000 gallons, so
      we'll add 50 lbs. of salt).

      Add it gradually allowing it to completely dissolved. You can take measurements with the salinity meter to
      be sure you're not off on your estimated pond volume and adding too much.

      Using the calculator put in the 50 lbs of salt you added along with the % salinity change... for an example:
      If your initial salinity measurement was .02%, and you added 50 lbs of salt to your pond and the salinity
      measurement after all was added and dissolved was .12% (keep measuring the salinity until the meter
      measurement stabilizes. It make take a day or two), we'd have a change of .10%. So using the calculator,
      with the 50 lbs of salt and seeing the .10% salinity change, the total volume is 5991.396.

      Not recommended with plants in the pond.
      --Steve

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      Well... I did salt yesterday .. .3% and she is doing a lot better I added another.1% this morning... She is eating now and almost back to her old self. I’ll go to .6% and keep it there for two weeks then a big water change. Then as needed to get it back to 0

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