• Amused
  • Angry
  • Annoyed
  • Awesome
  • Bemused
  • Cocky
  • Cool
  • Crazy
  • Crying
  • Depressed
  • Down
  • Drunk
  • Embarrased
  • Enraged
  • Friendly
  • Geeky
  • Godly
  • Happy
  • Hateful
  • Hungry
  • Innocent
  • Meh
  • Piratey
  • Poorly
  • Sad
  • Secret
  • Shy
  • Sneaky
  • Tired
  • Results 1 to 14 of 14

    Thread: PP VS FMG treatment for parasites

    1. #1
      Rich8888ri is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oakdale new york (Suffolk County long Island)
      Posts
      186

      PP VS FMG treatment for parasites

      I read about a ton of people using PP ( Potassium permanganate) treatments to kill parasites and i think to myself why? Someone needs to explain to me why they would use that over FMG (proform c aka. Formalin /malachite green). PP is highly toxic to fish and will destroy the gills or kill the fish if not dosed correctly. Not to mention that it kills off all your good bacteria in the pond and the bio filters.. Most pond owners dont even know the exact gallons their pond holds (they think taking the dimensions will get them close enough)..

      On the other hand FMG will kill the parasites and not your bio filter. It is also much more forgiving on your koi's mortality if the dosage is off.

      So i ask you again, why would you use PP to kill parasites? If your disinfecting a system i totally understand.

    2. #2
      coolwon is online now Senior Member
      is Garfield is my name DIY is my
      game
       
      Feeling:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2016
      Location
      Durban South Africa
      Posts
      2,469
      Cheap?

      And nasty.

      Unless you know what you are about with it. .
      Last edited by coolwon; 4 Weeks Ago at 05:04 AM.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    3. #3
      montwila's Avatar
      montwila is offline Supporting Member ~ Koi Health Care Committee Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Aug 2009
      Location
      Auburn, WA.
      Posts
      2,403
      Quote Originally Posted by Rich8888ri View Post
      I read about a ton of people using PP ( Potassium permanganate) treatments to kill parasites and i think to myself why? Okay, lets explore this. Someone needs to explain to me why they would use that over FMG (proform c aka. Formalin /malachite green). These two chemicals or "medications" do not do the same thing. PP is highly toxic to fish and will destroy the gills or kill the fish if not dosed correctly. PP itself is not highly toxic to fish. Yes, it is an indiscriminat oxidizer when used in the pond. Malachite Green is a toxin in the sense that it is a carcinogen. Formalin is embalming fluid (Formaldehyde 37%). So Proform-C is actually the more "toxic" of the two choices you have proposed. Not to mention that it kills off all your good bacteria in the pond and the bio filters. A single dose of PP @ 2ppm will only set back the filters slightly. . Most pond owners dont even know the exact gallons their pond holds (they think taking the dimensions will get them close enough).. This is true and probably the best argument for not using PP. But even if the PP treatment is 3-4 ppm (when you thought it was going to be 2ppm) it is still pretty safe if you are constantly monitoring the pond and understand what you are watching.

      On the other hand FMG will kill the parasites Does not kill skin or gill flukes or some other parasites. and not your bio filter. It is also much more forgiving on your koi's mortality if the dosage is off. Again if you use PP correctly and monitor its progress, being ready to reverse it if the need arises, then maybe not as forgiving. However that said the commercial Proform-C that is currently being sold is much safer than the original formula. End of that discussion because people will kill their fish and have killed them with the original formula. But there are still some of us who still make our own at the original strength and there are threads here on KP with warnings about the original strength formula.

      So i ask you again, why would you use PP to kill parasites? If your disinfecting a system i totally understand.
      PP like Proform-C is a tool in the medicine chest. It is much less expensive and will (hopefully) set back an outbreak of "most" parasites. It reduces the bacteria in your pond and may reduce the amount of Proform-C that is needed to "clean-up" the pond of organics. In other words: the Proform-C might be more effective when it is used provided you did not use H2O2 to reverse the PP after one or two low dose PP treatments. If you know exactly what you are treating and Proform-C will work, then only use Pro-C. But most people as you point out do not even know the true volume of their pond. So how can we expect them to diagnose what is needed for their problem without a good scrap and scope THEN actually use the correct medication at the correct level.

      Basically, if you are going to treat fish. Know what you are treating. Know what will treat that particular problem. There is no single silver bullet in koi keeping. Also know the contra indications of the treatment you choose to use. What works on a Koi might kill a High Fin shark at any treatment level.
      Last edited by montwila; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:39 PM. Reason: punctuation/spelling

    4. #4
      Rich8888ri is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oakdale new york (Suffolk County long Island)
      Posts
      186
      That is a good and fair reply. However if pp is strong enough to kill the bad bacteria then it should be strong enough to kill the good bacteria as well (since it doesn't differentiate) . In doing so it seems like it will do more than set back the filter. It will start it over.. But i don't know that for a fact. Thank you for the thought out reply .
      Last edited by Rich8888ri; 4 Weeks Ago at 01:57 AM.

    5. #5
      MikeM is offline Super Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      May 2004
      Location
      Orlando, FL
      Posts
      1,067
      I strongly prefer Proform C (or similar), combined with Prazi if flukes are present, over PP. However, it would be incorrect for anyone to get the idea that formalin/malachite green do not set back all bacteria in the pond. The impact should not be as significant as PP, but it is substantial enough that attention should be paid to nitrification following treatment.... especially in ponds that are not 'over-filtered'. Over-dosing F/MG may not carry quite as high a risk as over-doing PP, but it is a real risk also. There is a reason that the label says to monitor the fish closely for the first hour or two following treatment & be ready to intervene if the koi start gasping at surface. New pondkeepers should keep in mind that all medications are dangerous to all living things. Recommended dosages strike a balance of harms that will kill off the bad living organisms without killing the fish. It is the pondkeeper's responsibility to be sure they have accurate gallonage and measurements (and be sure any product from outside the U.S. is using U.S. gallons and not U.K. gallons).

    6. #6
      coolwon is online now Senior Member
      is Garfield is my name DIY is my
      game
       
      Feeling:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2016
      Location
      Durban South Africa
      Posts
      2,469
      Quote Originally Posted by Rich8888ri View Post
      That is a good and fair reply. However if pp is strong enough to kill the bad bacteria then it should be strong enough to kill the good bacteria as well (since it doesn't differentiate) . In doing so it seems like it will do more than set back the filter. It will start it over.. But i don't know that for a fact. Thank you for the thought out reply .
      Start it over?

      The fish are choking on ammonia and nitrite by the time the filter has got itself up and in great enough quantities to handle the fish load.
      Last edited by coolwon; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:21 AM.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    7. #7
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is online now Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is playing on Koiphen
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      32,403
      I've used PP many times but I've never used it for treating diseases or parasites
      and only to control docs so 2 ppm is my normal limit. I've never had it effect my bio
      filter (shower/bead filter/SG) to a point where I saw an increase in ammonia or nitrite.
      --Steve

    8. #8
      coolwon is online now Senior Member
      is Garfield is my name DIY is my
      game
       
      Feeling:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2016
      Location
      Durban South Africa
      Posts
      2,469
      I suppose it depends on your stock levels in relation to your filter capacity?
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    9. #9
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is online now Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is playing on Koiphen
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      32,403
      Quote Originally Posted by coolwon View Post
      I suppose it depends on your stock levels in relation to your filter capacity?
      I'm sure you're right but I'd think I'd see it if it truly was making my filters start over despite
      my small stocking level. The only thing I've actually used and seen my filters effected so it changed
      the ammonia level was Vikron Aquatic.
      Just fwiw.
      --Steve

    10. #10
      coolwon is online now Senior Member
      is Garfield is my name DIY is my
      game
       
      Feeling:
      Cool
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2016
      Location
      Durban South Africa
      Posts
      2,469
      I am not a gambler.

      INSTRUCTIONS

      Switch off UV light

      By-pass your bio filter.

      Add lots of extra aeration

      Know the volume of your pond and make up the correct percentage.

      Watch the color and add more according to the color

      Have a mix of neutralizer in case you over medicated

      Some fish are susceptible to pp.

      Have a net to scoop out the

      causality and get it into the QT

      SCOPE IT, KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TREATING FOR

      The list goes on and on.

      I am as nervous as anything, when it comes to dosing a pond full of my fish.
      Find more about Weather in Durban, ZA

    11. #11
      Rich8888ri is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oakdale new york (Suffolk County long Island)
      Posts
      186
      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I've used PP many times but I've never used it for treating diseases or parasites
      and only to control docs so 2 ppm is my normal limit. I've never had it effect my bio
      filter (shower/bead filter/SG) to a point where I saw an increase in ammonia or nitrite.

      That is an interesting thought. Using it to control doc's. Lets explore that a little more. How do you know your doc is high? I dont have a meter for that but i typically do a largeer water change when i see floating foam or alot of floating bubbles. How often do you pp for that? How many grams do you way out per each 1000 gallons to get to 2ppm?

    12. #12
      icu2's Avatar
      icu2 is online now Administrator ~ WWKC Treasurer
      is playing on Koiphen
       
      Feeling:
      Friendly
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2007
      Location
      Poulsbo, WA
      Posts
      32,403
      Quote Originally Posted by Rich8888ri View Post
      That is an interesting thought. Using it to control doc's. Lets explore that a little more. How do you know your doc is high? I dont have a meter for that but i typically do a largeer water change when i see floating foam or alot of floating bubbles. How often do you pp for that? How many grams do you way out per each 1000 gallons to get to 2ppm?
      No meter, just like you mentioned, foam forming on the pond surface... although you might be able
      to use a TDS meter. I just measured mine and it says 55 ppm and the water is pretty clear. It also seemed
      to help with string algae but it may have just been the hydrogen peroxide I used to clear the water of the
      brown color from the spent PP. I'd use it every couple of weeks when it needed it.

      Honestly I rarely use it now. When the ponds were newer it was more of a problem. After the addition
      of an RDF and the ponds maturing, I almost never get foam or string algae. (knock on wood )
      2 ppm in 1000 gallons of water works out to about 7.57 grams. There's a calculator here on Koiphen
      under the tab "Koi Calculators" up at the top of the forum in the dark blue navigation bar, or:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/koicalcs.php

      As the water had less and less debris I dropped the amount to about 1 ppm. The less docs there is in
      the water the less you need to get the same effect. My routine was to mix a fourth of the total PP I
      planned on using (my one pond is 4000 gallons so I'd do about 7.5 grams at a time) and mix it in a
      5 gallon bucket with water and pour it around the edge of the pond. I'd wait 10 min. or so for it to
      start mixing well. Then I'd add another 1/4 (7.5 grams) and do the same waiting period till I'd used
      the entire amount to reach 2 ppm. It'd take less than an hour to turn brown. I'd then dump in 1 qt.
      of 3% hp per 2000 gallons (so 2 of them in my 4000 gallon lower pond) after a couple hours to
      clear the water. Later on I wouldn't even bother with the hp and by the next day the color would clear
      on its own. But it did seem to help with the string algae so if that is an issue you might try it. Some
      say it increases the ORP level in the pond when using hp. I don't know since I don't have an ORP meter
      but I didn't have any problems.

      Edit: Out of curiosity I used the TDS meter on my tap water from the well and it measures 62 ppm.
      --Steve

    13. #13
      Rich8888ri is offline Senior Member
      This user has no status.
       
      Feeling:
      ----
       
      Join Date
      Jul 2012
      Location
      Oakdale new york (Suffolk County long Island)
      Posts
      186
      Thanks for the info..

    14. #14
      rainblood's Avatar
      rainblood is online now Assembler of Water Droplets
      is The Plantinator
       
      Feeling:
      Piratey
       
      Join Date
      Feb 2008
      Location
      Valhalla
      Posts
      16,616
      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I've used PP many times but I've never used it for treating diseases or parasites
      and only to control docs so 2 ppm is my normal limit. I've never had it effect my bio
      filter (shower/bead filter/SG) to a point where I saw an increase in ammonia or nitrite.
      Ditto. I use PP coming out of winter. Roughly 1 teaspoon per 1000gal on day 1 and 3.
      I don't neutralize it with HP....I just let it clear up on its own accord.
      -Rain

      :I CAN'T BRING THIS SHIP INTO TRTUGA ALL BY ME ONESIES, SAVVY?:

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •