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    Thread: I need new pond build advice!

    1. #1
      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      I need new pond build advice!

      Hey, folks,

      I've made a number of garden ponds over the years, and most of them have been rectangles. I did have a naturalistic irregular curved edge pond in Western Pennsylvania, but in California, Texas, Tennessee, Mobile, and here inside the beltway, I've always done rectangles. Because liner comes in rectangles, and it's expensive, so I always want to make the pond as large as possible, without wasting any. Besides, I've always used wood frames: dig the hole, frame it up with 2x4s or 2x6s, attach the liner to the frame, and trim it up with strips of wood. It works well. Add a filter next to it, let it gravity flow back into the pond, and life is good.

      But then, the other night, I sat down the household, which at this point consists of me, my Darling Bride, and #6 son, and discussed plans for the back garden. Among many other things, the plan calls for two ponds. I already have the liner for the first one, 15 x 20, so that'll make a nice wood framed pond, somewhere around 9 feet by 14 feet, and 3-4 feet deep, depending on how I slope the sides. I'll do a variant on the sand and gravel filter on it. No problem.

      Then I started talking about the other pond. The main one. I've got my eyes on a 20 x 25 foot liner for it. Figured I'd build it like I usually do. Then Darling Bride, who almost never gets involved with outside things, said "Maybe you should make a natural edge pond." And thus spake She Who Must Be Obeyed!

      Now, she's New England Frugal, so when I explained that would waste some liner, I figured she's relent. She did nothing of the sort. Instead, she doubled-down. "That part of the yard is on a slope," she said. "Can you add a stream?" I tried to explain that would raise the costs. I swear to goodness: aliens kidnapped my Darling Bride, and replaced her with a look-alike who doesn't squeeze every dollar until the eagles grin!

      A couple days later, I decided to test the alien kidnapping theory, and took her to the local stone yard. Sure enough, they had a bunch of pallets of what they called Pennsylvania Wall Stone. Just the kind of fairly flat, irregular rounded edge stone one would use to hold down the edge of a liner. She found a pallet with a color she liked. Seeing my chance to test the alien replacement theory, I showed her the price tag: $249 dollars. She didn't blink. "Who are you," I said, "and what have you done with my Darling?"

      So I'm in for it now. You need to know a couple things. My soil is rocky clay, full of roots. The whole yard is on a bit of a slope, and when it rains the water follows down the layers of clay and comes to the surface, as an intermittent spring, in the fairly flat area where the pond will be. About 20 feet uphill from the pond site, there's a spot for an 8 foot x 8 foot bog filter, which I'd likely make about 18" deep. As I said, the run would be about 20 feet, and the rise would be about five feet from the level of the surface of the pond to the level of the top of the bog filter.

      I suppose the stream could be 2 - 3 feet wide, and done in steps, so there would be 3 or four mini waterfalls on the way down, and it could be lined with stones and planted with bog plants.

      The stream and bog would be North of the pond. The deck, and deck steps, would be to the east. So on the west side of the pond, I'd have equipment. I'd put in a bottom drain, and have some sort of settling chamber (blue barrels?) right next to the pond. I'd put a submersible pump in the chamber to pump the water up to the bog filter.

      But, just based on the local ground hydraulics, the pond is going to have to be raised up a little, maybe a foot. Otherwise, when it rained, water would get between the clay layers and the liner, and the liner would start to 'float.' That would be bad. A raised wood frame would prevent that. But, alas!

      I did think of doing a single course of concrete block all around the edge of the pond. The liner could go over the top of the block, and I could put the stones on top of that. But then I imagined some of those blocks sinking into the clay, and shook with horror!

      Then I thought I could maybe set the single course into a thin base of concrete. Then I thought I'd have to make it thick, and to do that, I'd have to do this other thing, and then something else, and pretty soon it would turn into some giant elaborate construction project which I'd be certain to muck up!

      Help!

      Thanks,

      Bill
      Last edited by One Poet's Garden; 03-05-2021 at 05:20 PM.

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    2. #2
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      See the current thread titled " Pond Rebuild " ... They are discussing the importance of putting a concrete collar in to ensure stability of pond walls, and/or a stone collar around the pond.

    3. #3
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wlantry View Post
      Hey, folks,

      I've made a number of garden ponds over the years, and most of them have been rectangles. I did have a naturalistic irregular curved edge pond in Western Pennsylvania, but in California, Texas, Tennessee, Mobile, and here inside the beltway, I've always done rectangles. Because liner comes in rectangles, and it's expensive, so I always want to make the pond as large as possible, without wasting any. Besides, I've always used wood frames: dig the hole, frame it up with 2x4s or 2x6s, attach the liner to the frame, and trim it up with strips of wood. It works well. Add a filter next to it, let it gravity flow back into the pond, and life is good.
      It's generally not a good idea to put a pond in where ground water collects for the reasons you mentioned.
      It's also hard to make a raised pond look 'natural' but if you go this route I'd make it at least 24" or so to
      be comfortable to sit on. Does the water run close enough to the surface that you could build something like
      a french drain around the pond location?

      Barrels for SC's are only good for about 2k gph and still be effective. If you can swing it a sieve is much less
      maintenance, flows more, and works better. And I personally would avoid a bog filter like the plague.

      Hope you'll share the pond builds when they happen!
      --Steve



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    4. #4
      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by stevek View Post
      See the current thread titled " Pond Rebuild " ... They are discussing the importance of putting a concrete collar in to ensure stability of pond walls, and/or a stone collar around the pond.
      Thanks, I'll look for this.

      Best,

      Bill

    5. #5
      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      It's generally not a good idea to put a pond in where ground water collects for the reasons you mentioned.
      It's also hard to make a raised pond look 'natural' but if you go this route I'd make it at least 24" or so to
      be comfortable to sit on. Does the water run close enough to the surface that you could build something like
      a french drain around the pond location?

      Barrels for SC's are only good for about 2k gph and still be effective. If you can swing it a sieve is much less
      maintenance, flows more, and works better. And I personally would avoid a bog filter like the plague.

      Hope you'll share the pond builds when they happen!
      Steve,

      Thanks for your note. When you say 24", you mean raise the wall to 24"? I'll need to see if that passes muster with Darling Bride.

      A sieve would be good, and would likely be the wisest course. Alas, I am far from a wise man. Plato himself was said to be pretty wise, but he was also very rich, and could afford to make wise choices. I'm just a humble poet, muddling through life!

      Here's a question: if I plumb the bottom drain with four inch pipe, would that allow for a 2k gph flow? I'm guessing there's a chart somewhere with that answer?

      On the subject of the bog filter: it has several advantages. I won't need a structure to hide the filter equipment. I'll be able to grow some specialty plants in it - these are garden ponds first after all, even though the koi will get pride of place. And it's cost effective: some block, some pvc, and a bunch of gravel. Down the road I may be able to swing a more expensive option.

      And oh my goodness! I was just checking on some prices of construction material. I had figured the price of softwood lumber would have come down by now. After all, the tariffs are being lifted, etc., etc. Wrong. A treated 2 x 4 is nine dollars. Nine dollars! And it now costs $2.60 for a foot of 2 x 10! Dang! Remember I said I was going to make Pond A out of wood? That whole plan is now out the window. It's actually less expensive to make it out of cinder block. I guess I need to learn some masonry skills!

      Thanks,

      Bill

    6. #6
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wlantry View Post
      Steve,

      Thanks for your note. When you say 24", you mean raise the wall to 24"? I'll need to see if that passes muster with Darling Bride.

      A sieve would be good, and would likely be the wisest course. Alas, I am far from a wise man. Plato himself was said to be pretty wise, but he was also very rich, and could afford to make wise choices. I'm just a humble poet, muddling through life!

      Here's a question: if I plumb the bottom drain with four inch pipe, would that allow for a 2k gph flow? I'm guessing there's a chart somewhere with that answer?

      On the subject of the bog filter: it has several advantages. I won't need a structure to hide the filter equipment. I'll be able to grow some specialty plants in it - these are garden ponds first after all, even though the koi will get pride of place. And it's cost effective: some block, some pvc, and a bunch of gravel. Down the road I may be able to swing a more expensive option.

      And oh my goodness! I was just checking on some prices of construction material. I had figured the price of softwood lumber would have come down by now. After all, the tariffs are being lifted, etc., etc. Wrong. A treated 2 x 4 is nine dollars. Nine dollars! And it now costs $2.60 for a foot of 2 x 10! Dang! Remember I said I was going to make Pond A out of wood? That whole plan is now out the window. It's actually less expensive to make it out of cinder block. I guess I need to learn some masonry skills!

      Thanks,

      Bill
      Hi Bill,
      Yes, if the wall is raised to sitting height it can make a nice place to rest and enjoy the pond while preventing
      ground water from entering the pond. Here's one that is a free form design, but also raised:



      More ideas in this thread:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...-Koi-and-Ponds

      Yes, a 4" BD will flow 2k gph with a very small amount of draw down In fact it should probably flow closer to
      4k gph in order to not quickly start collecting debris inside the pipe itself and eventually plug up. "Draw down"
      could be described as the difference in the gravity fed filter water level and pond water level. Here's a simple
      drawing (these aren't meant to be actual water levels you'll see... just a representation of draw down in the
      barrel with different size pumps):

      Name:  Draw down different pumps.jpg
Views: 352
Size:  34.4 KB

      Some love bog filters, but they do take a lot of maintenance. No need to convince me as I've seen a number
      of them that look really nice... but I've also seen a lot that later rip them out too, so it's a personal choice.
      One thread with some varying opinions:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...t-input-please

      I've built a liner pond and another out of block and mortar. If I was to make another I'd make it out of block.
      And I'd never touched block, mortar, or even redi-mix concrete before my pond projects.

      Enjoy the process!
      --Steve



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    7. #7
      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      If you can swing it a sieve is much less
      maintenance, flows more, and works better.
      OK, you win. I saw the price tags on some of those ready-built sieves, and fainted. But it looks like DIY solutions exist. Now I'm wondering if someone has come up with a self-cleaning DIY version?

      Thanks,

      Bill

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      pickerel's Avatar
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      My DIY sieve isn't self cleaning, but it does wash out quickly and easily by turning a couple of 3-way valves. The build starts at post #13 here: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...New-Pond-Build

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      The real wedge wire screen sieves are incredible and make maintenance of the entire system so much easier. Most of Us have originally balked at the prices , but after many years of trying to find a better way to prefilter solids out of the system , We have realized that sieves are one of the best prefilters .I thought about building My own , but the price of the wedge wire alone made Me realize that buying one ready built was a better option. Used gravity fed sieves like the Cetus can be found fairly cheap , so consider that option .Buy the Sieve , and DIY the rest of the system .

    10. #10
      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Some love bog filters, but they do take a lot of maintenance. No need to convince me as I've seen a number
      of them that look really nice... but I've also seen a lot that later rip them out too, so it's a personal choice.
      One thread with some varying opinions:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...t-input-please
      Enjoy the process!
      Steve,

      Wow, there must be a thousand ideas in that thread. Thanks for linking. And thanks for the youtube link as well. I've got a lot of thinking to do.

      I've made a crude drawing of the garden plan.

      Name:  newgarden.jpg
Views: 345
Size:  94.7 KB

      North is up, south is down. The deck is 12 feet above ground level. Without measuring, I'm guessing it's a five foot rise from the surface level of the main pond to the overflow level of the bog. But now I'm already thinking that design won't work, as the sieve has to come *before* the pump? Or am I getting that wrong?

      In any case, about the pump: I found several 4k gph pumps in the $100 range. Is there a formula for how much that flow will be reduced after rising 5 feet, or is that pump dependant?

      Thanks,

      Bill

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      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by pickerel View Post
      My DIY sieve isn't self cleaning, but it does wash out quickly and easily by turning a couple of 3-way valves. The build starts at post #13 here: https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...New-Pond-Build
      Thanks so much for this link! I'm mostly a woodworker, and set up for wood - we even have a woodshop instead of a garage. So It's nice to know a sieve can be made of wood. Not sure I understand the bit about the vacuum, though.

      But the real joy was seeing how you solved the pond construction issues. I hadn't thought of making the collar at the start... and I had visions of me standing hip deep in mud trying to work with concrete. I am curious: it looks like the collar is 6-8" thick? Is that correct? I ask because I'm going to have to mix all my concrete myself: there's no way I'm getting a concrete truck down to the back garden, and the pond site is a good 150 feet from the road.

      And - Oh my goodness - I saw your mention of an electric jackhammer. I have got to get me one of those!

      Thanks,

      Bill

    12. #12
      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by catfish whiskers View Post
      The real wedge wire screen sieves are incredible and make maintenance of the entire system so much easier. Most of Us have originally balked at the prices , but after many years of trying to find a better way to prefilter solids out of the system , We have realized that sieves are one of the best prefilters .I thought about building My own , but the price of the wedge wire alone made Me realize that buying one ready built was a better option. Used gravity fed sieves like the Cetus can be found fairly cheap , so consider that option .Buy the Sieve , and DIY the rest of the system .
      Thanks. I just went down the internet rabbit hole looking for such a beast, and came up pretty empty. For the prices I was looking at, I could make the bog filter four times as big. Do you have a good link for places to look?

      Thanks,

      Bill

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      Quote Originally Posted by Wlantry View Post
      Thanks. I just went down the internet rabbit hole looking for such a beast, and came up pretty empty. For the prices I was looking at, I could make the bog filter four times as big. Do you have a good link for places to look?

      Thanks,

      Bill
      Yes , right here on this forum

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...enton-Michigan

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      Yes, the collar is about 6" thick and the width varies from 10-12". The sieve is between the pond and the pump, so the pump is sucking directly through the sieve. This creates a vacuum, and if the sieve isn't an air tight box it won't work because water won't be sucked up from the pond....air will be sucked into the box instead. Steve (icu2) mixed all the concrete for his collar so it can be done. When I figured the cost of 40 bags of sakrete and the labor involved, the cost of having it delivered was worth it to me. Here's a thought: we just had a 24x25 concrete slab poured for a new garage. The truck came up the driveway, but they used what they called a "Georgia Buggy" to transport the concrete to various points of the slab. You might ask if they can use such a thing to get the concrete to your pond area. It holds 3/4 yd. The electric jackhammer really saved me. I couldn't have finished the pond without it. This is the one I bought: https://www.amazon.com/XtremepowerUS...5157927&sr=8-2
      Attached Images Attached Images   

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      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by catfish whiskers View Post
      Uh-oh. The system says I don't have access? I guess I'm not cool enough? How do I get my 'cool dude card?'

      Thanks,

      Bill

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      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wlantry View Post
      Uh-oh. The system says I don't have access? I guess I'm not cool enough? How do I get my 'cool dude card?'

      Thanks,

      Bill
      Bill,
      It looks like the sieves were sold and so the thread was moved to be removed because we try and keep the Trader
      forum cleaned of sold items... but I'll move it back so you can at least see what the thread looked like. Try it again now...
      --Steve



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    17. #17
      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Bill,
      It looks like the sieves were sold and so the thread was moved to be removed because we try and keep the Trader
      forum cleaned of sold items... but I'll move it back so you can at least see what the thread looked like. Try it again now...
      Steve,

      Thanks. I feel better now, as they would have been out of my price range anyway. Darling Bride's on the financial warpath. Maybe the coast will clear by the time I order the concrete block!

      Thanks,

      Bill

    18. #18
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      OK, all youse geniuses, I'm doing it this way:

      Name:  concrete.jpg
Views: 319
Size:  687.2 KB

      Not least because that looks like a blue version of my 1998 GMC Sonoma pickup in the background! But this is uncharted territory for me: I'm a wood guy, not a concrete person. So, a couple questions:

      How thick does the concrete collar need to be? Will two inches do it? Three?

      How wide does it need to be? I'd just as soon make it 8" wide, the width of the block, but I guess I need at least one inch on each side? More? This is for the rectangular pond, by the way.

      Are two rows of rebar enough? Overkill?

      Is this plywood being used for the interior form?

      Name:  rebar.jpg
Views: 315
Size:  642.0 KB

      Like luann plywood? Or maybe something else?

      Big question: the liner is going to come up the block wall, and then get bent over the top. I assume. Then what? Does it somehow get glued to the block? And then the capstones get laid on top of that? How do they get held on?

      I'm trying this with the small pond first. It'll be 7 by 12 by 4 feet deep. I'll have questions about how to plumb the bottom drain, and the return, eventually, But those will keep until next time!

      Thanks,

      Bill

    19. #19
      icu2's Avatar
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      I only had a single row of block with rock on top of that on my collar, but I made mine 4"-6" thick and a little more wider than 8", but not a lot.
      I used 2 pieces of rebar in the collar and I just used a 4x8 sheet of 1/4" hardboard ripped into 6" strips for the forms. I held it in place with the
      wedges HD sells for door jam spacers.



      Name:  Img_0052.jpg
Views: 303
Size:  170.9 KB

      Here's a thread with some ways to attach the liner to the block:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ed-formal-pond
      --Steve



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      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I only had a single row of block with rock on top of that on my collar, but I made mine 4"-6" thick and a little more wider than 8", but not a lot.
      I used 2 pieces of rebar in the collar and I just used a 4x8 sheet of 1/4" hardboard ripped into 6" strips for the forms. I held it in place with the
      wedges HD sells for door jam spacers.
      Steve,

      OK, so this is a plan. Thanks so much! Except for the hardboard. With my luck, it would rain for a week just as I was getting ready to pour, and that stuff would turn to mush!

      I'm going to build the small pond first, and probably mix the concrete in a wheelbarrow. The pond will be 7' wide, and 12' long (liner is 15 x 20). According to my precise calculations, that means the collar will be 38 linear feet. Or something like that. So, 38 feet x 12" wide x 6" deep, and that comes out to 42 sixty pound bags of concrete. Add 10% because I'm an idiot, and we're looking at around 50 bags mixed in a wheelbarrow. Dang!

      Do folks normally fill the voids in the block if they're just doing a course or two?

      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Here's a thread with some ways to attach the liner to the block:
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ed-formal-pond
      Ramset! What an idea. I've got one sitting unused in my shop. I think I used like 3 or 4 cartridges when I was pinning a baseplate to a concrete floor about 15 years ago. So I've got a whole box of cartridges just sitting there. I wonder if they're still good?

      Thanks,

      Bill
      Last edited by One Poet's Garden; 03-09-2021 at 10:20 AM.

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