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    Thread: New pond on PAC NW

    1. #1
      souvikch is offline Member
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      New pond on PAC NW

      Dear members -

      Plan to start building my first koi pond in my Pacific NW backyard this spring. This forum has been incredibly educational and wanted to get feedback on my plan before starting the project in spring.

      Backyard is currently empty, backing to a green belt and slightly sloped away from the house (~1.5 ft drop every 10ft)(pictures attached). We want to build ~6,000 gallon Koi pond, as well as patio / fire pit, planting beds etc
      • Q1: Any suggestions/pictures/sources to get more ideas on overall design?
      • Q2: Thoughts on pond size? Should I think of going bigger / smaller?
      • Q3: Any recommended contractors in the Seattle area?


      Regarding the pond:
      • Approx. 17' x 14 ' x 4’ (kidney shaped). with sloped in bottom towards a bottom drain with an aerator. Do I need 2 bottom drains? Should I use 3in or 4in BD? Should I consider a retrofit bottom drain? Seems easier/safer to install?
      • 1’ ledge around the edges for plantings around the waterfall. 12' stream/waterfall with bends. No plants or rocks inside the pond. Any good design idea pointers?
      • 3-4 white color underwater lighting (3-4x). Any recommendations?
      • Auto-filling arrangement


      Filtration:
      • Pump (Pump inline artesian2 1/2 HF, $675) pulls in water from bead filter and skimmer. Q1: Is this pump too large / small? Q2: Any recommendation on a lower operating cost pump?
      • Bottom drain to Bead 10,000 gallon bead filter (Eg: Aqua Ultraviolet 10000 Filter, $1850). Q1: Is this too large? Recommendation on any other model?
      • Skimmer also feeds to the bead filter . Q: Amy recommendation on skimmer?
      • Pump pushed out water through UV clarifier (120W UV light (Eg: Aqua Ultraviolet Classic 120 Watt, $1250)
      • UV clarifier pushes out water to the waterfall filter (at the top / fountain). Q: Any recommendation on a model? OASE BioSmart 10000 Pond Filter ($375) and Atlantic Water 26-Inch Spillway ($450) looked good but unsure.
      • Pump also pushes water to the 2x jets. Q: How do I decide on the diameter / flow rate? Thoughts on model?
      • Don’t have a separate settlement chamber or physical filter before the bead filter. Q: Is this needed or can wait?


      Any other general guidance (including i should look at this completely differently) is very welcome.
      Regards.
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    2. #2
      gray cat's Avatar
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      Welcome to Koiphen. Beautiful setting for your new pond. Best of luck with your build and we look forward to your pics.
      Nancy



      Koiphen 2013 Koi Person of the Year!

    3. #3
      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      Nice project. Looking forward to the progress pics!

      Others can tell you far more about filtration, etc. I'm mostly a water gardener. So my first question is: are those trees to your north or your south? How much sun / shade will the pond area get?

      As to size: always go bigger, if you can. Especially if you're not the one doing the digging! It makes everything easier. I can't remember hearing someone say "I wish I'd made the pond smaller."

      I usually make a one foot deep ledge around the edge of my ponds, so there'll be a place for bog plants. But now I live next to a river, and I see herons all the time. I'm starting to reconsider the practice. It may be best to plan now for predator deterrence.

      Thanks,

      Bill
      Last edited by One Poet's Garden; 02-15-2021 at 10:59 AM.

    4. #4
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      Quote Originally Posted by souvikch View Post
      Dear members -

      Plan to start building my first koi pond in my Pacific NW backyard this spring. This forum has been incredibly educational and wanted to get feedback on my plan before starting the project in spring.

      Backyard is currently empty, backing to a green belt and slightly sloped away from the house (~1.5 ft drop every 10ft)(pictures attached). We want to build ~6,000 gallon Koi pond, as well as patio / fire pit, planting beds etc
      • Q1: Any suggestions/pictures/sources to get more ideas on overall design?
      • Q2: Thoughts on pond size? Should I think of going bigger / smaller?
      • Q3: Any recommended contractors in the Seattle area?
      Welcome and thanks for joining Koiphen!
      Long initial posts can be hard to know where to start when responding, so I'll just kind post some things
      that come to mind, not by importance or anything.

      The dimensions show to be a little over 7000 gallons which is pretty good size imo.
      If the pond is for koi I'd nix the shelf idea. The PNW is known for herons and raccoons that will use the
      shelf for a feeding platform. Straight sides down to the pond floor will discourage them from wading.

      For BD's a general guideline is an aerated BD of 4" will be effective for about 12' diameter flowing 3500-4500 gph.
      A 3" aerated BD flowing 2500-3500 will work for about 10' diameter. You can start with that to estimate the number
      to use depending on the dimension of the pond floor. Ultimately it will also depend on the number of gph your filters
      can handle and how many egress points you have to the filters. On a new pond I'd personally stick with regular BD's
      and not have to look at retro BD pipe in the pond. A retro drain works best going through the side of the pond so
      it still requires a penetration. Regular BD's installed correctly won't leak. I bet if we did a poll of everyone here you'd
      see a very small number that ever had a BD leak, if any at all.

      Many use pond lighting from over the water as opposed to in it. It's easier to install and doesn't show debris in the
      water nearly as well.

      There are several good style of auto fills and having the one you'll use before building will allow you to install and
      hide it well during construction as opposed to trying to add it later. Here's one:

      https://www.jandy.com/en/products/water-leveling/k1100

      Pond design is almost limitless... search the forum and you'll find all different kinds. Here is a thread that shows off
      some of member's ponds:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...-Koi-and-Ponds

      Waterfalls:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...-photos-PLEASE

      YouTube videos:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ers-on-YouTube

      Looks like a great project! Go slow... read as much as you can.... ask lots of questions... and have fun!
      --Steve



      Koiphen 2021 Koi Person of the Year!

    5. #5
      souvikch is offline Member
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      Thank you - finalizing contractors - hopefully have pond by summer

    6. #6
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wlantry View Post
      Nice project. Looking forward to the progress pics!

      Others can tell you far more about filtration, etc. I'm mostly a water gardener. So my first question is: are those trees to your north or your south? How much sun / shade will the pond area get?

      As to size: always go bigger, if you can. Especially if you're not the one doing the digging! It makes everything easier. I can't remember hearing someone say "I wish I'd made the pond smaller."

      I usually make a one foot deep ledge around the edge of my ponds, so there'll be a place for bog plants. But now I live next to a river, and I see herons all the time. I'm starting to reconsider the practice. It may be best to plan now for predator deterrence.

      Thanks,

      Bill
      The trees are to the east and the pond will have sunlight (as much as we get Seattle) for larger of the day. I am thinking of ~7,000 gallon. Thanks for your suggestion.

    7. #7
      souvikch is offline Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Welcome and thanks for joining Koiphen!
      Long initial posts can be hard to know where to start when responding, so I'll just kind post some things
      that come to mind, not by importance or anything.

      The dimensions show to be a little over 7000 gallons which is pretty good size imo.
      If the pond is for koi I'd nix the shelf idea. The PNW is known for herons and raccoons that will use the
      shelf for a feeding platform. Straight sides down to the pond floor will discourage them from wading.

      For BD's a general guideline is an aerated BD of 4" will be effective for about 12' diameter flowing 3500-4500 gph.
      A 3" aerated BD flowing 2500-3500 will work for about 10' diameter. You can start with that to estimate the number
      to use depending on the dimension of the pond floor. Ultimately it will also depend on the number of gph your filters
      can handle and how many egress points you have to the filters. On a new pond I'd personally stick with regular BD's
      and not have to look at retro BD pipe in the pond. A retro drain works best going through the side of the pond so
      it still requires a penetration. Regular BD's installed correctly won't leak. I bet if we did a poll of everyone here you'd
      see a very small number that ever had a BD leak, if any at all.

      Many use pond lighting from over the water as opposed to in it. It's easier to install and doesn't show debris in the
      water nearly as well.

      There are several good style of auto fills and having the one you'll use before building will allow you to install and
      hide it well during construction as opposed to trying to add it later. Here's one:

      https://www.jandy.com/en/products/water-leveling/k1100

      Pond design is almost limitless... search the forum and you'll find all different kinds. Here is a thread that shows off
      some of member's ponds:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...-Koi-and-Ponds

      Waterfalls:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...-photos-PLEASE

      YouTube videos:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ers-on-YouTube

      Looks like a great project! Go slow... read as much as you can.... ask lots of questions... and have fun!
      Thank you much for the very helpful pointers. The amazing list of links helped me narrow down to a design. Am close to finalizing contractor and will sure have many more questions soon after as we plan out construction.

      Regards

    8. #8
      trapper is offline Senior Member
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      Try to keep in mind that for the health of the koi it's best to not have any gravel/rocks inside the pond..

    9. #9
      souvikch is offline Member
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      Ok - am getting close to starting construction.

      Qa- do I need permit for the pond? It’s around 6,000 - any Guidance is very much appreciated!


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    10. #10
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by souvikch View Post
      Ok - am getting close to starting construction.

      Qa- do I need permit for the pond? It’s around 6,000 - any Guidance is very much appreciated!


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
      A lot depends on your local laws or any HOA rules. As a general rule figure the answer is yes. Look
      online for your county and often times they'll have general guidelines or at least numbers to call to
      get answers.
      --Steve



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    11. #11
      pickerel's Avatar
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      We live out in the country and I chose not to get a permit. Once they know what you are doing, there's no telling what regulations they might try to hold you to. For instance, would you want to be required to put a fence up around your pond? They might consider it in the same class as a pool. I wouldn't even call them because I didn't want to be on their radar. If you want to inquire, I would recommend a pay phone if you can find one...or borrow a phone.

    12. #12
      One Poet's Garden's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by souvikch View Post
      Qa- do I need permit for the pond?
      I'm going to remain silent on this point. But I do think you should let your neighbors know what you're planning. There's no way to hide it, after all, and it looks like you're in a suburban setting, so they'll only be a few feet away from construction noise and mess. Take them each a bottle of champagne, and drink it will them, and rhapsodize about the singular beauty of the aquatic world, the Zen of ponds, Du Fu's garden verses, etc. The small expense may prove worth it in the long run.

      Thanks,

      Bill

    13. #13
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      Thanks folks for all you input. I contacted city office and they confirmed I don’t need a permit for a koi pond. Woo hoo!


      Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    14. #14
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      Thanks much for your advise and we are getting close to start digging. Two more questions

      I am thinking of getting "AquaBead GC Tek 4.25 Bead Filter AB4.25 - for Ponds to 10,000 Gallons" as bead filter.
      Question1A: any thoughts on this choice?
      Question 1B: am i better off going to the 17,000 gallon model which is a ~$200 extra (or will be an overkill for 7,000 gallon pond OR will i need to buy a bigger pump and thus increase long term costs)?

      Question 2: Any recommendation on UV filter? my pond will have full sunlight (as much as you can get in Seattle)? I am being recommended "Delta Ultraviolet for 10,000 gallon ponds"?

      Thanks much for all your help!







      https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00C7AXMI8...v_ov_lig_dp_it

    15. #15
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      As stated above, there are almost endless setups for pond filtration systems. They key is the entire system must be designed as a package. It will be very difficult for someone to answer your specific question on bead filter sizing unless you clarify if you expect the bead filter to do all the mechanical filtration, or expecting the bead filter to be your only biological processing unit?

      All bead filters add head pressure for your pump, even with the bypass piping of the valve in your unit, and they require a pump having even more pressure head capacity to properly backwash. These large pumps are often more than you may need, or want, for continuous pond operation. A two speed pump is one option, or a second option is two different sized pumps manifolded together. Regardless of what you decide to do, I highly recommend you require the "contractor" to provide sufficient piping between fittings and space and pipe stubs that your can use later to revise the system if it doesn't work as promised. You may want to add additional pumps, change the sieve for a rotating drum, or bypass the bead filter, or add a shower or moving bead bio chamber.

      Just my thoughts

    16. #16
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      Dear Grumpy and other - thanks much for advise. I have tried to capture diagram, background information and questions in this document - hopefully you can access. You can respond here or comment in the document below.
      https://docs.google.com/presentation...c95d502abd_0_0Name:  Pond.jpg
Views: 216
Size:  92.1 KB

      Incase there are access issues, here is picture:https://docs.google.com/presentation...c95d502abd_0_0

      Questions and background:
      Principles
      Minimize maintenance: Travel a lot and have a heavy work schedule >> minimal maintenance, including no maintenance for week or two is a priority. Wife can feed but cant clean
      Minimize regret: Rather over spend a bit upfront and have amazingly clean pond rather than save $
      Design notes
      There are two parallel systems (1x aqua scape and 1x bead filter etc)
      My pond builder is high on Aquascape and i am fine with him adding Aquascape, as see advantages of a parallel system (like turning off bead filter/primary pump in winter and keep the Aquascape and aireator running)
      Have oversized bead filter and UV
      Plan to keep a low, high quality fish load (~20
      Max elevation pump and waterfall ~5 ft and total distance in bead filter circuit is <20 ft
      Key Questions
      Thoughts on equipment choices/two systems?
      Should i get ⅓ or ½ HP pump? My bead filter has a separate aerator for backwash.
      I am not using a pre-filter (like a sieve) to keep design simple, (i) hoping i dont need it with an oversized bead filter (ii) its easy to add later. Should i get one?
      What else should i think about?

    17. #17
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by souvikch View Post
      Questions and background:
      Principles
      Minimize maintenance: Travel a lot and have a heavy work schedule >> minimal maintenance, including no maintenance for week or two is a priority. Wife can feed but cant clean
      Minimize regret: Rather over spend a bit upfront and have amazingly clean pond rather than save $
      Design notes
      There are two parallel systems (1x aqua scape and 1x bead filter etc)
      My pond builder is high on Aquascape and i am fine with him adding Aquascape, as see advantages of a parallel system (like turning off bead filter/primary pump in winter and keep the Aquascape and aireator running)
      Have oversized bead filter and UV
      Plan to keep a low, high quality fish load (~20
      Max elevation pump and waterfall ~5 ft and total distance in bead filter circuit is <20 ft
      Key Questions
      Thoughts on equipment choices/two systems?
      Should i get ⅓ or ½ HP pump? My bead filter has a separate aerator for backwash.
      I am not using a pre-filter (like a sieve) to keep design simple, (i) hoping i dont need it with an oversized bead filter (ii) its easy to add later. Should i get one?
      What else should i think about?
      What are the dimensions of the pond?

      I think you'll be disappointed with this design as is. When you pump directly from the bottom drain (BD)
      the "clean out" is usually much too small and needs frequent emptying. A better design is a larger
      mechanical filter before the pump, like a sieve or a rotating drum filter (RDF). A sieve can easily go
      a couple weeks without cleaning and a RDF is self cleaning by design and often can go months without
      attention. These will make a bead filter work much better and need cleaning much less often than
      pumping directly to them. Another option when using a good prefilter is leaving the bead filter out
      all together and just using a good bio filter and returning the water to the pond.

      What are the design of the "jets" shown? Returns that use small pond outlets (less than 2") put too
      much head on the pump and don't work as well as larger returns. Also, when using a single BD, it's
      normally centered in the pond and the under water returns are placed on opposite corners to create
      a circular flow around the BD and helping guide debris towards it.

      Two filter circuits are fine, but using a pump in the skimmer is not the best way to accomplish it imo.
      The skimmer can gravity flow to the same mechanical filter as the BD, or can run to another external
      pump.

      --Steve



      Koiphen 2021 Koi Person of the Year!

    18. #18
      Grumpy is offline Senior Member
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      Does your pond site demand only pump equipment to be above ground elevation? A relatively small filter pit somewhere near the pond can house the sieve or drum. Gravity flow from your bottom drain and skimmer to some form of mechanical filtration using 3" or 4" diameter piping will provide you the least regular maintenance. Your skimmer will also demand considerable maintenance, as will your submersible pump mounted in the very bottom.

      You will have significant on going maintenance with your current system along with higher power consumption. If you considered another form of biofiltration (shower, moving bed, anoxic) instead of the big bead filter, you can use a smaller bead filter to polish the water, and a smaller pump consuming less power.

      Name:  souvikch Pond comments.jpg
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    19. #19
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      As mentioned above who are highly recommended since they have been through the challenges multiple times, I would second a very good mechanical filter before the pump. If you are going to be gone for two weeks, then you need a rdf which is self cleaning. A cestus sieve needs to be cleaned off atleast once a week depending on the setup. Please take in the high recommended advice. I know aquascape says it hands off maintenance but that would need a very filter before hand to keep the water clean before entering. What ever the route you decide, make sure it is accessible if you need to clean it. The aquascape filters are deep and hard on the back to clean out the build up on the bottom.

    20. #20
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      Every one - thanks much for all your insightful comments. Very helpful and i am re-thinking the design. Few more question

      1. Any specific recommendation of skimmer? (#6 in diagram)
      2. Any specific recommendation of the "waterfall" - many have biological filter built in. Can i use a helix filter in the same location? (#1 in diagram)?
      3. Does the GPM assumptions in the diagram make sense?

      Regards, Souvik


      Name:  Pond2.jpg
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