Help. koi has odd (to me) disease around its eyes,euthanasia?.see photos need help

[Ralphw62]

I have this koi that was born in the pond. its the biggest one I have, about 3 years old. it grew very fast and out grew all the others rapidly.

This koi has a condition around both eyes and no obvious problems any where else. acts normal and is not in any distress yet that I can see.

This problem started about October. I looked like it was caused by him rooting around in the potted plants getting abrasions on his head from the rocks in the pots.

To me it looked like abrasion, now it is getting worse. we are in the middle of January .

Water temp is approx. 42 degrees f

Water was tested in December and all was within the norms.
I did notice today that the net I used has a very strong fishy smell to it one day later.

I have the salinity level about 640 PPM

The pond is aeriated constantly.

Its mainly white around the edges is not SAP, I once had a fish that had SAP along its entire body and healed it.

Please help me if you can. I have Malachite Green, but haven't used it yet, also I have been contemplating euthanasia?

If you need better pictures or a new water test (which I will probably do anyway) let me know.
this fish has one set of barbels and was born in the pond... I have a slight feeling it may be a hybrid with a comet.
it seems every time I get a big fish it gets ill and dies. not over crowded


Thanks

[RichToyBox]

I can't tell much from the pictures. The color doesn't look to be anything of import, more like color change. If the fish had an infection, I would expect to see fiery red coloring, not grayish white. If the fish is acting normal, I would do nothing in the way of treatments, but I would like to see you do routine testing, preferably with drop type test kits, like API for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, high range pH, and KH, as the numbers tell so much about what is going on with the water, which is the environment that the fish has to live in. You didn't mention frequency of water changes, which should be around 10% or more per week. I know that at this time of year, you will probably have frozen hoses that prevent some water changes, but there are also many days that the hoses will be thawed.

Can you also describe your pond and filtration for us.

[Ralphw62]

ok 10% change is done,

TESTS
PH: 6.5 gonna raise it closer to 7.
Nitrite 0
ammonia 0
phosphate 0

salinity: didn't test but guessing around 460ppm

PICS:

[RichToyBox]

That does look like it is something besides a color change. If it is hard to the touch, I would say it is viral, like carp pox and it should go away with temperature changes, but may return as temperatures drop over the next few years until it develops immunity. If it soft, it could be sap, which is a fungus, but fungus will often catch algae in its structure, giving it a greenish color that I am not seeing.

Back to the water, I really think there is a problem with the pH reading. Either the test is incorrect, or you have a serious problem with the level of the KH. Typically, when we see pH values that low, you would be in a pH crash and there would be a major difference in the pH at sunrise and sunset, causing stress on the fish. As I said yesterday, test for KH with the drop type test from API. If it is less than 6 drops, you need to add baking soda to bring it up to anything over 6 drops, even up to 12 or 13 drops is not a problem. This will cause the pH to go up to about 8.3. the evening pH should be the highest during the day, so adding the baking soda at that time will affect the pH the least, but lock it at a constant pH morning to evening.

[kdh]

microscope well probably help tell what is going on. It does look like pox but it also looks like SAP. The one pic were you see the smaller spot on the left eye. If you look over to the other side. You can see swelling were the other larger whiter area is. Also some of it looks indented but hard to tell by pic? this is not indicative of carp pox. Might even be new skin but since you say it is getting worse. Rule that one out.
Just me guessing. Not an expert

Nice looking koi

Euthanasia? no way

[Ralphw62]

I saw the ph was about 6.5 I was going to try to raise it to about 7 I will get a kh test as I don't have a fresh one. I didn't touch the areas but it looks soft... I really don't think its sap as I have dealt with sap a few times and treated it quite successfully. It started when the weather was warmer and I think it would have gotten some green on it. Its my favorite fish.

[coolwon]

Sucked into a round pipe for a couple of seconds?

Garfield

[RichToyBox]

Don't try to hit a particular pH value. They are happy in a wide range of pH values, but they are not happy if the pH is jumping around. Get a good KH value and the pH will be stable. Most find the pH is about 8.2 to 8.4 if the KH is good.

[Ralphw62]

I did a KH TEST!



The number of drops to turn it to yellow was 2?

[Ralphw62]

So if the KH was 2 and the ph was 6.5... any ideas?

I saw the PH stuff in the fish store, but it was for an aquarium? big bottle they had both the ph up and the ph stuff with a specific number or target6.5....7....7.5....8....8.3...

[Ralphw62]

ok adding a heavy 1/4 cup of baking soda....will check ph and kh later on,,,,,about 800 gal.


I'll do it again tomorrow

[Ralphw62]

ok checked the ph and kh......ph is about 7.2 i would say and the KH is 4 drops or 71.2ppm

[Ralphw62]

microscope well probably help tell what is going on. It does look like pox but it also looks like SAP. The one pic were you see the smaller spot on the left eye. If you look over to the other side. You can see swelling were the other larger whiter area is. Also some of it looks indented but hard to tell by pic? this is not indicative of carp pox. Might even be new skin but since you say it is getting worse. Rule that one out.
Just me guessing. Not an expert

Nice looking koi

Euthanasia? no way

some of the flesh is missing around top of the starboard eye

[RichToyBox]

Continue the addition of the baking soda until the KH is at least 8 drops for now. I believe that if you were to measure the pH morning and evening with the KH as low as it was, you would have found a swing in the pH of over 1 unit, and we would like to keep that to less than 0.2 units.

I don't see any infection needing antibiotics, but I would try putting the fish under anesthesia (Oil of Cloves or MS-222), and with a small paint brush, paint on table salt paste over the affected areas and wake the fish up and place back in the pond. The salt will give a short term whitening but will kill anything that is bothering the area, if it is not internal viral. Keep an eye on it and if it becomes infection red, then we will need to address that.

[Ralphw62]

well i have a
ph of 6.8
kh of maybe 4 drops

will ad more BS

I may get a microscope I saw a couple on amazon, not to bad but would like one that is binocular type and i want to be able to take photos.
I'm getting Ice so catching it would be tough. but have a good sized hole with the aeration.

As soon as I can I will buy a microscope , I'm interested. its just going to be a while as I'm on disability from a fall, I was a carpenter 45+years and they had me fixing contractors mistakes in a brownstone in Brooklyn. . landed on steel stairs and ended up with a triple fusion. 3 floors. its a battle with ss and wc I get about 1/3 of what the people coming into the country will get and no health insurance. oh well,,I'll work at it.

Thanks for everything and will let you know how the baking soda works out with the ph & kh

[Ralphw62]

OK Monday morning 9:00am 38 degrees ...1/4 cup of baking soda added

PH 7.0
KH
4

I know there is a limit to the BS and raising it to fast.... was wondering if I should go to a 1/2 cup or stay with a 1/4 and just do it slowly?

TY

[icu2]

I didn't see the number of gallons the pond has but there's a calculator that will
help to know how the amount of BS added will effect the KH. You want to keep from
raising the pH too fast and the farther it is away from 8.3, the more the KH may
effect the pH.

All the calculators are up at the top of the forum on the dark blue navigation bar under
"Koi Calculators":

https://www.koiphen.com/forums/koicalcs.php?do=calckh

In case it's needed, I measured it and 1/4 cup of BS is about 2.2 ounces.

Since the KH and pH isn't probably causing your health issue and if no fish are in any distress,
I'd not add any more than needed to raise the KH by a few drops. The closer you get to
pH of 8.3, the less adding more BS will effect it. Check the pH in the morning and evening. The
swing between the two is what you want to minimize and what raising the KH should accomplish.

Also, check the KH of your source water so you know how doing water changes will effect the
pond.

Here's a couple of articles about KH and pH too:

https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ns-and-Newbies

https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ns-And-Newbies

[RichToyBox]

Cheeck the pH in the late afternoon, as this will be the highest pH due to the photosynthesis of the algae consuming carbon dioxide, which in water forms carbonic acid, so the acid level will be the lowest at that time. If the pH is at or near the 8.3 range, you should be able to add all of the baking soda needed at one time. If it is still not that high, then creep up on it. The morning pH is the lowest and will be affected the most by the addition of the baking soda. The baking soda should lock in the pH very near the 8.3 morning and evening.

[Ralphw62]

Hi, I am adding the bs pretty slow
the pond is about 900 gallons

I skipped a day adding bs. Tuesday was PH was roughly 7 both morning and evening
the KH was the same 4

this morning the PH i would say 7.2
KH about 4 added 1/4 cup bs will check at sunset. I can't really get a good look at the fish right now with the ice but supposed to warm up I think.
Its slow going but thats ok.

[Ralphw62]

Wednesday night 1/4 cup BS
thursday:
morning PH 7.8 KH 5

evening PH 8 KH 5

not sure what it means the ph going up but the kh stays the same
I was able to get a look at the fish today for a second or 2 and it seems the same.
i'll let it rest a day with the BS and keep testing.
thanks all cold and icy