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    Thread: Bottom Drains in larger ponds

    1. #21
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by montwila View Post
      ...Advantage has a variable speed pump that I am also fond of and have been running now for the last season at about $600 per pump. Performance pro is a very good line of pumps and usually last a long time...
      Back when I was researching pumps, Advantage had a very poorly laid-out website, providing either no flow/head data, or made it hard to find. Either was a red flag to me. Maybe they're better now, but there's only so much that can done with a centrifugal impeller type design for very low head installations. The "best" pump very much depends upon the flow and head, where what's most efficient for one situation may not be for another. The FlowFriend Pro for example, would be a poor choice with any more than about 24" head. My situation was unusual in that it was too high for an airlift solution, and too low for a centrifugal impeller pump to win out. Again, it paid for itself in my application, but every situation is different.
      Last edited by kimini; 01-21-2021 at 10:16 AM.

    2. #22
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      Last edited by batman; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:56 AM.
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    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      Advantage Manufacturing Energy Advantage variable speed pumps are a high head swimming pool design. You get a energy efficient variable speed motor but much less energy efficient overall than a pump with a wet end designed for low head high volume. They also start at 1.65 hp.
      Not true:

      They (Advantage) has a screwy web site also. They took an ES model 8600 GPH pump and put a variable speed motor on it. I have a couple of them that I use in Summer on my lower pond. I run them at approximately 220 watts and this is good for me. At that wattage one runs at 1200 RPM and the other runs about 1400 RPM. They are after Cetus sieves and that means the "speed limit" is 4800 gallons per hour. I do not max the sieves out anymore but 220 watts does them justice and two of these pumps on a 7000 gallon pond means I am turning over about once an hour. So two variable speed pumps for half of what I paid for a single Flowfriend.

      Previously I use to use a ES 5500 on the BD circuit and a ES 8600 on the skimmer circuit for my lower pond. These new VS motors perform as well at about 100 watts less per pump.

      Now that it is Winter I use a Periha 20000L on the Bottom drain circuit on the lower pond as I only have about 7' of head. It saves me another 80 watts from the VS pump and it will still keep the sieves weir flush with the top of the body. So maybe about 3000 GPH. I still need the other VS pump on the skimmer circuit as it is pumping to a bead filter and thus has more head than the BD circuit.
      Last edited by montwila; 01-20-2021 at 10:19 PM.

    4. #24
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      Last edited by batman; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:57 AM.
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    5. #25
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      Lyann is the contact person for Advantage, although I haven't seen her on the forum in
      several months Her contact information is in her signature... click the "About Me" tab:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/membe...7-Advantageman
      --Steve

    6. #26
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      ...Advantage... [is]still greatly lacking useful performance data to do comparisons...
      It's like a car manufacturer making a lot of noise about their high-mileage models, but not listing the mpg anywhere. I get it, omissions happen, but this was a problem when I was looking 2-3 years ago, and it's still going on. I guess most buyers just take the stated zero head numbers as gospel and don't know any better.
      Last edited by kimini; 01-21-2021 at 10:24 AM.

    7. #27
      Alarakalama is offline Supporting Member
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      Monte,

      I am so lucky to have access to deep experience like yours and others here. I compared two Periha pumps to FlowFriend, Goulds and Artesians. The rough cost analysis has very clear results as long as you don't mind pumps with head less than 5-10 feet (which is OK with me). I can probably get away with 3 or 4 periha pumps to achieve proper turnover. If one of these affordable pumps die, I can replace it for less than the cost of a rebuild kit for a goulds.

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      It sounds like I will want to focus TPRs on dead spots more so than creating circulation around BDs. At those flow rates, it sounds like a 2" pipe is appropriate for a 2" TPR.

      I see your point on the 18" sweep for BDs without walls pushing back circulation. It then seems like I will want to bump up to 6 BDs with 6 or so feet to walls and a shorter distance (4 feet maybe) between BDs. Given the cost effectiveness of Periha pumps, I may be able to pull it off without breaking the bank.

      Dumb question time, what is the purpose of a S&G or MB filter? Is this for biological activity or mechanical filtering (with backwashing?) My plan is to do aerated 55 gallon barrel(s) of K2 media pulled through via gravity flow just before the pump. I have one already and it works well but I have no frame of reference.

      I agree, Home-runs and clean-outs are a must

      Brent

    8. #28
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alarakalama View Post
      ...Dumb question time, what is the purpose of a S&G or MB filter? Is this for biological activity or mechanical filtering (with backwashing?)...
      S&G units are for "polishing" the water - removing very fine particulates. While all filters have some bio action, that is not its primary function.

      MB filter is a proper bio filter, and in fact is kind of the opposite of the SG unit, as the MB is all bio and tends to pass particles straight through.

      Back-washing is not used with either.

    9. #29
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      Last edited by batman; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:58 AM.
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    10. #30
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      Last edited by batman; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:59 AM.
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    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alarakalama View Post
      I am so lucky to have access to deep experience like yours and others here. I compared two Periha pumps to FlowFriend, Goulds and Artesians. The rough cost analysis has very clear results as long as you don't mind pumps with head less than 5-10 feet (which is OK with me). I can probably get away with 3 or 4 periha pumps to achieve proper turnover. If one of these affordable pumps die, I can replace it for less than the cost of a rebuild kit for a goulds.
      There's NO WAY you will get 12000 gph out of two Periha PB-25000 pumps in a real world scenario. I have eight of them so don't take that as a criticism of the pump--just a reality check on the rating. Plan on more like 3500 gph each at 5 feet of head.

    12. #32
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      Last edited by batman; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:59 AM.
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    13. #33
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      The head difference between the pump and TPR will be perhaps two feet at best. However, I could put these pumps in a pit a the same depth of the TPRs. The suction will be flooded from the gravity filter train side. If the pit floods, they should be ok since they are submersible. In theory the only head would be 20 feet or so of friction loss (less than a foot).

      That said, my experience is that there is always some squirrely head loss form turbulence on one or both sides of the pump side and i've never dealt with such small head conditions. I'm more accustomed to Class 450 pipe with 280 PSI which oddly seems easier then this!

      Brent

    14. #34
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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      Someone from Advantage must monitor this forum. Their site now shows the smaller HP variable speed pond pumps. Still greatly lacking useful performance data to do comparisons.

      Trouble with the company in the past has been constant substitution of motors and getting pump parts mixed up between series. Poor quality control. Often pump and motor combo shipped didn't come close to performance chart.
      I would not dissagree:
      Yes, I think they make their living with other lines of pumps and probably got into selling pond stuff as a new market.

      When I do talk with the staff they seem receptive and if you know what you are looking for, then it usually it comes correct.

      Yes, as I said their website is screwy and it really could provide more information and specs.
      Last edited by montwila; 01-22-2021 at 02:27 PM.

    15. #35
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      Quote Originally Posted by kimini View Post
      S&G units are for "polishing" the water - removing very fine particulates. While all filters have some bio action, that is not its primary function.

      MB filter is a proper bio filter, and in fact is kind of the opposite of the SG unit, as the MB is all bio and tends to pass particles straight through.

      Back-washing is not used with either.




      Backwashing is a reversal of flow and the term is used often to describe cleaning the filter or component. So true a SG is not backwashed but does need to be cleaned on occasion. This is usually done with air and the flow through the unit is sometimes shut off but I always keep mine flowing. The waste products, while cleaning are diverted to a waste line and away from the pond. Once the water is clear then flow is redirected to the pond and the cleaning of the SG is complete.

      So Backwash may mean a couple things when we are discussing ponds.

    16. #36
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      Quote Originally Posted by Alarakalama View Post
      The head difference between the pump and TPR will be perhaps two feet at best. However, I could put these pumps in a pit a the same depth of the TPRs. The suction will be flooded from the gravity filter train side. If the pit floods, they should be ok since they are submersible. In theory the only head would be 20 feet or so of friction loss (less than a foot).

      That said, my experience is that there is always some squirrely head loss form turbulence on one or both sides of the pump side and i've never dealt with such small head conditions. I'm more accustomed to Class 450 pipe with 280 PSI which oddly seems easier then this!

      Brent
      Brent:

      I am not advocating for 6 bottom drains. Just pointing out that the 4-6 radius is (like pumps) situational based upon the design of the pond. I am glad you understand this. More is not always better. In fact I would consider reducing the ponds size rather than tacking on more bottom drains. Less water that needs to be filtered equals less wattage used. Less filtration equipment that is needed and thus a smaller filter pit. Also as mentioned previously it is very hard to catch fish in a pond that is wide (much less deep). A large pond sounds wonderful but it has more drawback than benefit in my opinion. Besides it is very hard to see fish when they are 20 feet away from you.

      Usually when I talk to people about their ponds I start with what their goals are. You started kind of in the middle by asking about how many bottom drains were needed. With your back ground I can understand this as you have already put a lot of thought into the project before even asking the question. There is a lot of discussion about pumps but maybe a site drawing that includes where the filter pit is located and elevation(s) might eliminate a lot of useless (to your situation) posts. I think everyone is trying to be helpful but if your "waterfall' is only 1 foot in elevation and flooded pumps in a pit below pond level. This takes many pumps off the table if wattage is a concern which you have mentioned. In fact an axial pump might be appropriate (similar to the Flowfriend pro pictured above). 2 foot is too much for airlifts practically speaking.

      So maybe we could back this up some: like I said way back, real slow....
      What are your goals? Some fish? Some Plants? Are you planning to swim with the fish and that is why you want such a large pond? How did you chose these dimensions? What is the Quality of fish you might keep.
      Maybe a site drawing and an elevation sketch. Also the size of your RDF and how many inlets/outlets and sizes of each. where and how much space do you have for a filter pit? It would sure help me.
      Last edited by montwila; 01-22-2021 at 02:32 PM.

    17. #37
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      Monte,

      I'm travelling this week so I apologize for the delayed response.

      My primary goal is to cut less grass (half joking!). We have 4 acres that was just a field when we bought it. So in addition to planting mostly native trees, we wanted to add a substantial pond. This is intended to be a visual water feature as much as a koi pond. I absolutely want to the ability to grow high quality koi. It's my understanding that deeper ponds will allow for warmer shoulder season temperatures and cooler peak summer temperature - and therefore longer, healthier growing seasons. Swimming with them will not be regular because I intend to be OCD over protecting the liner.

      I have attached a picture of the site. As you can see, I already poured the footer and I'm ready to start laying block whenever the weather aligns with my schedule. The area is flat with clayey soils below the top soil. The seasonal water table is high. Note the natural ditch/pond/giant puddle in the back. For this reason I don't plan on any serious excavation until warmer/drier months.

      I'm working with a machine shop to fabricate two window frames from a single sheet of 11 Gauge stainless steel. Both 4' x 2' windows. I'm not locked in with them so if anyone knows a good options for ordering windows in the US then it may be cheaper.

      The block wall will be 5 blocks tall from the footer and 3.5 blocks above final grade. I probably won't backfill as much on the pond side of the footer which is why I said 32 inches deep on the pond side. Pond depth is a different matter. I've read on this forum that they will jump out regardless of height if they really want to jump out. So I am thinking 4 to 6 inches from the top of the wall to the still water elevation.

      The yellow lines indicate the future sloped walls using spoil. This layout is very flexible (unlike the CMU wall). As a small phase 2 down the road, we hope to have an aquatic plant area behind the waterfalls and feeding into them. The yellow semi circle between the waterfalls (perhaps 24 inches each) would then become an island with waterfalls flanking it. Prevailing winds push from the top of the page to the bottom of the page. I think the skimmer location is optimal for catching wind blown surface debris through much of the year. I grow lotus and other water plants, so I'll probably have a plant shelf along the long yellow soil wall.

      The goal is a 100% gravity driven filtration train except perhaps the UV reaction chamber. The BDs and Skimmer will feed into a large sedimentation basin which I hope will be the workhorse. It may ultimately need more real estate than I have shown depending upon flow rate. The concept of S&G filters are new to and interesting to me so I need to figure out if I can gravity flow through them as well.

      BD & Skimmer --> Sed Basin --> RDF --> Aerated K2 --> S&G --> Pumps --> UV --> Waterfall and & TPRs

      Edit: (Upon doing some research, I'm loving 'sieve' filters as an alternative to a big sed basin)

      The RDF is a 48 Micron mesh wrapped around a stainless cage in a drum shape. It's controlled by an Arduino that operates a drive motor and a solenoid valve that opens up domestic water for spraying. It has a float switch for run condition and overflow cut-off. It worked fairly well on a pump fed system without pre-filtering of any sort. The proposed arrangement will have much higher flow rates but hopefully less solids with the sed basin ahead of it. Worst-case scenario is I build a bigger drum or put a courser mesh on it. Perhaps the S&G drums can clean up whatever it misses?

      I acknowledge that catching koi is going to be difficult. I haven't got that figured out yet but it's not a high priority for me - perhaps out of ignorance. I assume (?) eggs and fry will find their way to the sed basin where they will be manageable.

      Brent

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      Last edited by Alarakalama; 01-27-2021 at 08:47 AM.

    18. #38
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      In addition to the other information, I thought I would expand on the bottom drain question:

      For a larger pond with multiple bottom drains, the cost of 4+ BDs is not insignificant. Is there any reason to lean towards a more expensive BD like the Rhino II or is the more affordable EasyPro (less than half the cost) suitable?

      Brent

    19. #39
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      Last edited by batman; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:00 AM.
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    20. #40
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      I used a couple of the Koi Toilet model BD's for mid water pickups and they've worked well.
      They're also not built as well as the Rhino ones but unless they're stepped on I don't think
      they normally see much abuse on the pond bottom.
      --Steve

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