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    Thread: Do I have micro fish lice and chilo?

    1. #21
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
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      Update:

      I checked the koi today and I found:

      1) The lesions on the small koi have improved nicely.

      What I have done:

      Topical treatment with iodine, then back into the same tank. Since then I have also reduced feeding by 30-50% to reduce waste production and thereby to improve the water quality.

      Since the lesions are healing, I guess that the water quality is good enough.

      2) But an other koi which did not show any lesion under previous inspection now has got a single, localized lesion which looks quite bad. Under microscopy I did not see anything moving. I cannot explain how it got it. So I wonder if any friend here can tell me the cause? Thanks a lot!

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      3) Furthermore, the tancho gomoro shown in the first 2 pictures has got many red spots on its belly, and the red spots seem to be under the slime coat therefore they are not holes. It does not have excessive slime coat though. It had 2 or 3 red spots already last time, but now there are many more. I also wonder if anyone could tell me what they are. Thanks!

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    2. #22
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
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      I wonder if it is possible that these are mechanical damages? I have nothing sharp in the tank, except a submersible pump, an air-stone and a round river stone with a diameter of 10 cm (to cover the water outlet so that no small koi will get sucked and lose scale).

      Following picture shows the improvement of a bad lesion on one koi over the last 8 days. That koi also only had one single, localized lesion, similar to the new one:

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    3. #23
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      In going back over the posts, I don't see numbers for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH, temperature. I always like to see what the environment is, as the fish have to live in that water, healed or sick.

      The wounds would appear to be caused by parasites. The treatment that you did would not affect flukes, and a microscope viewing should show them, but at 100X, costia which can cause serious harm, would not be visible. It is hard enough to see them at 400X. The PP, if it stayed active long enough, should have taken care of them, but you didn't seem to know if the treatment held or not. I think I would go for the formalin/malachite green treatment, three days in a row with a 25% water change between doses.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
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      Richard

    4. #24
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      In going back over the posts, I don't see numbers for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH, temperature. I always like to see what the environment is, as the fish have to live in that water, healed or sick.

      The wounds would appear to be caused by parasites. The treatment that you did would not affect flukes, and a microscope viewing should show them, but at 100X, costia which can cause serious harm, would not be visible. It is hard enough to see them at 400X. The PP, if it stayed active long enough, should have taken care of them, but you didn't seem to know if the treatment held or not. I think I would go for the formalin/malachite green treatment, three days in a row with a 25% water change between doses.
      Thank you Richard!

      It makes sense with very small parasites like costia, as my microscope does not have so good resolution.

      The water values: 0 ppm ammonia, 0.2-0.8 ppm nitrate (remedied with 0.05-0.1% NaCl), 80-100 ppm nitrate, 5-7 dKH (adding 25-30 gram daily to 600-700 liter), pH not measured continuously, but since I am adding NaHCO3 daily I am sure that pH is stable.

      I will treat the tank as you advised!

      I forgot to mention that there has not been any flashing or any other abnormal behavior, therefore I have not suspected parasite outbreak. I wonder if it happens often that fish behave normally despite parasite infestation?
      Last edited by SimonW; 01-10-2021 at 04:16 AM.

    5. #25
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
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      Hello friends:

      I have now treated the tank with formalin-malachite green 2 times, and the lesions seem to have improved, but not completely healed.

      I did new scrapings, and this time I indeed found moving things, apparently protozoa. Strange that F-MG had not killed them.

      The most numerous kind of them are bell-formed and appeared to be anchored on the cells (blue arrows on the pictures which are screen-shot of the videos). Time to time they contract as if they have caught food. I know that there is a kind of protozoa which are not parasites but predators just like these. I seem to see something else moving (red arrow). Is it a chilo? The magnification is 200X.

      Video:
      https://youtu.be/LQIfi8wVPzM

      Screenshot:
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      Video:
      https://youtu.be/4OibKq9LTa8

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      Thank you very much for your thoughts on wether these are bad things and why they have not been killed by F-MG! And most importantly, what action I should take as next step.
      Last edited by SimonW; 01-24-2021 at 02:23 PM.

    6. #26
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
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      I have just found out that this kind of protozoa are called Vorticella.

      I guess that they are harmless? Then I wonder how they got onto the fish skin!

      By the way, the scraping is from the lesion on the bekko in post #21.
      Last edited by SimonW; 01-24-2021 at 06:31 PM.

    7. #27
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
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      Update + new situation

      Since 24/1 I had not treated the koi again until 3 days ago when I examined them again (it has gone 40 days). I found that the bekko still have the lesion though smaller, and the tancho gomoro also still have some red spots on its belly. So I gave them a new iodine-treatment.

      Then I have also changed my mind about a home-bred asagi born summer 2019 which has lived in the same tank with the sick bekko and the tancho gomoro with red spots on its belly. It also had lesions already in the beginning of January (2 months ago) but had never been treated with iodine earlier due to the strange looks of its lesions. I thought that it got cancer. Today I realized that I probably had saved it if I also treated it with iodine. Now it is in really bad shape: At the lesions the skin is severely damaged, but the scale, though partially damaged, are still sitting there well.
      .
      But it has not been totally un-treated, as I have treated the whole tank 2 times with F-MG, plus weekly PP (4 times within 2 hours to keep an effective concentration of PP).

      My questions are:

      1) Is it caused by bacteria infection? I have not found any parasites by scrapping, and all the other koi in that tank except the bekko and the tancho gomoro are just fine. So it cannot be parasites, right?

      2) Can it still be saved? If yes, what can I do for it?

      It has been treated with iodine twice, once 3 days ago and once today. Then it is put in an aquarium that have only been used to grow duck-weeds since October last year, and the water has not been changed since then, except that I just cleaned the bottom which led to 20% water change.

      I know that the pictures are not great, but I cannot get better ones.

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      Last edited by SimonW; 2 Days Ago at 08:38 PM.

    8. #28
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      What I am seeing is bacterial infection, probably brought on by parasites a few months ago. With your treatments with FMG and PP I would not expect to find any parasites. I don't know your availability of antibiotics, but they are needed for treatment now. Over here we have Tricide Neo which is great for this type of thing, but I suspect you do not have access to it. Some of us have access to injectible antibiotics, like Baytril - Enroflaxacin or Amikacin and in the https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...ive-Discussion thread Parts 18 and 19 there are directions on use of these and Part 17 discusses sedation for ease of handling. Antibiotics here require veterinary prescription and many are not willing to prescribe for fish as that is not part of their training and practice. I don't know if you have any clubs or suppliers that could help in obtaining proper meds.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

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