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  • Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
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    Thread: Greenhouse pond build

    1. #61
      Wlantry's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by batman View Post
      2x4s across top are plenty. Bowing most likely will be a slow process taking a long time. I only mentioned the cable if you didn't want to block view. Also since you're space limited an elevated filter could easily be placed across one of the ends. I've seen multiple greenhouse ponds where combo bio and plants were elevated above pond. Put solids pre-filter and pump on one end and pipe down to elevated bio on the other.
      Y'all are going to laugh. I meant to put in the liner, one layer at a time. After the first layer, add enough water to make the liner go flat against the bottom, make sure there's enough overhang, etc. Then the next layer of liner goes on, and enough water to make that layer lie down. Then the third layer of liner, and start filling for real.

      Works every time, 60% of the time. Having the water between layers allows for adjusting as it fills, getting the folds out, etc. Gets a little dramatic, but it works.

      Because the 2x4s across the top would be an obstruction, I meant to wait until the pond was 60% full before adding them. But I got so involved with getting the liner right, I let it go to about 80% full. Big mistake! By that time, the pre-cut 2x4s were **too short!** It was either cut new ones, or partially drain the pond.

      So I decided to cut new ones. The center one is two inches longer than the one it replaced! How's that for a substantial bow? The intermediate ones are an inch longer than the originals. It's one of those things that most folks won't notice, but I'll see every time I look at it.

      Anyway, I kept going. As the pond gets close to full, the water between the layers gets squeezed out. That's not much of a problem with an outdoor pond, but I underestimated what it would be like inside the greenhouse. The clay and water mixed into a muddy mess!

      But the pond holds water. Yes, indeed. Thanks to you good folks, and your building advice, this crazy plan actually worked!

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    2. #62
      Wlantry's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by mplskoi View Post
      I agree w Batman on 2 by 4's being plenty.
      If it were me I would put one every 3 feet. Use two 3 1/2 inch deck screws to attach to the top. At 3 feet space they will be very handy to set racks/trays/shelves on. Might be a nice play to set your "starter" trays for plants.

      Re: filtration- I (like ICU2) think a SG filter would be great for this application. I would set it on a very firm (cinder block) stand- it will weight over 400 pounds when in use. Set it so that the exit pipe comes out maybe 20-24 inches above pond height. You can then build a very simple "shower filter" so that the water comes out of SG and then hits the shower. The shower can be a simple tote bin from any big box store. Something about the size of a bushel basket. It can sit on these 2 by 4 cross members and fall back into pond from there.

      There is a submersible pump that has multi speed function available at Home Depot. Think it is called the Eco Twist. You can dial it down to super low speed, or crank it up to full power and literally adjust it one watt at a time to find the perfect speed for your application. Consider setting this pump on the far end of the pond from filtration. Connect it via 2 inch PVC pipe painted black so it isn't visible in pond. Pump the water back to the filter end within the pond (no risk of hitting it with a shovel or wheelbarrow and causing external leak). Then have the water come out, up and over to SG filter.

      Good pond design allows you to easily check for leaks and minimize what can happen if you do get one. Keeping the return line within the pond eliminates a few leak places. (or if it does leak inside the pond it wont matter).
      So now it's time to start thinking about filtration. I finally figured out the sand and gravel filter. The key was finding a youtube video of someone cleaning it. "Oh, that's what the PVC pipe structure is for!" I can be pretty dim sometimes.

      Anyway, dumb question: instead of blowing air down into the drum to clean it, why not make a drain near the bottom? In other words, have a valve for occasionally draining the water out? The water's good for low dose plant fertilizer, and it would keep the filter operating efficiently. There must be a reason why people don't do this, but I can't see it.

      Back to the pond: I went out and got 50 feeder goldfish, and about three dozen ruby red minnows, just to get things going. The air pump came last night, so I've got the air stone in now. Everybody seems happy:

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      When I put the air stone in a few hours ago, the greenhouse air temp was around 62 - it's a cloudy, mid-40s day here in DC - and the pond water temp was around 51. It's been my hope that the pond would act as a kind of heat battery, taking in the greenhouse warmth during the day, and releasing it at night, and that the air being pumped through it would greatly enhance the transfer both ways. I guess we'll find out soon enough if that works. One monkey wrench in that: the air pump is not silent.

      But now I'm thinking to myself that, in a closed space, your idea for a S&G filter, combined with a shower filter, would achieve the same ends, as far as heat transfer goes, while providing the filtration I'll need for the eventual koi. Do you have a shower filter design you'd recommend for this application?

      Thanks,

      Bill

    3. #63
      kimini is offline Senior Member
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      What brand is the air pump? The Medo's are very reliable and much quieter than most, but none are silent. A compromise would be to put it outside in a weatherproof container.

    4. #64
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      You can put a pipe clamp or 2 on the tank to suck in the sides and reattach the cross beams to hold them.
      On the S&G filter, the layers of rock and gravel trap all the dirt and debris. Blowing air from the bottom up agitates all this waste up and out the top. Just opening a drain on the bottom will not do that.
      ________________________________________
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      Ci


    5. #65
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      Quote Originally Posted by Wlantry View Post
      Do you have a shower filter design you'd recommend for this application?

      Thanks,

      Bill
      Any DIY shower design with several good size totes with media in them after the
      s/g filters will work. Here's a neat design but bigger than you need, but just for
      some ideas:



      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...r-a-S-G-filter

      Edit: More ideas...

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...-an-Intex-Pool!
      --Steve

    6. #66
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      Looks good so far! I am a little lost in your layers of liners and how the water got outside of the liner and onto the dirt (mud) floor.

      what are the liner (s) made of? Just curious.

      With those 4x4s bowing like that, now you understand what constant pressure those 4xx4s will be under the rest of their life!

      It will be neat to find out what temperature your water and greenhouse air will be maintained at through your endeavor.

    7. #67
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      Quote Originally Posted by cottagefog View Post
      Looks good so far! I am a little lost in your layers of liners and how the water got outside of the liner and onto the dirt (mud) floor.

      what are the liner (s) made of? Just curious.

      With those 4x4s bowing like that, now you understand what constant pressure those 4xx4s will be under the rest of their life!

      It will be neat to find out what temperature your water and greenhouse air will be maintained at through your endeavor.
      The liner is just 6 mil black poly. 10' x 100' roll goes for about 50 bucks on amazon. I've used it on outdoor ponds in the past, but never again: UV degrades it after a couple years, a heron's beak will go right through it as the bird tries to spear a fish. But there aren't any herons in the greenhouse (I hope!), and no worries about UV because the twinwall polycarbonate walls are UV stabilized.

      On Temperature: rationally, the water temperature should be exactly the average between the high and low for the day, minus whatever influence the greenhouse floor has. You see lots of sites on greenhouse design sites saying 'line the north wall with closed barrels of water.' But experienced greenhouse folks say this is folly, and that you'd need to completely fill the greenhouse with barrels to make much of a difference. They say it's because the barrels are slow to warm up, and slow to release their heat. Hence the air pump: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07ZG998F3/ Ten gallons of warm air per minute should make for a decent heat exchange, and be good for the fish as well.

      I'm glad I had a baseline water temperature before I put in the pump. I wish we were looking at some sunny days coming up, so I could really get a good idea about the system. But it's DC January weather: cloudy, upper 30's to low 40's every day, below freezing every night. We're looking at a big snow event in about 8-10 days. So it's a real world acid test right off the bat.

      Anyway, overnight greenhouse temp was about 5-6 degrees above what it would normally be, so I'm guessing the system might be working. Not enough data points so far, obviously. Still trying to decide whether I should add a heater to the water. Something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Orlushy-Subme...dp/B07H2KRWFF/ There must be a formula out there that says 'a 100 watt heater will raise the temperature of 1000 gallons of water by x degrees per hour,' but with so many variables, it's hard to control for everything. Here's the result of one calculator I found:

      Water Heating Energy Calculator
      This calculator tells how much energy will be consumed to heat the water from the start to end temperature.

      Amount of Water 1000 gallons. Start temperature 50 F. End temperature 55F. Result 12.23 Kwh (equal to 44015906J / 10479978cal / 12227Wh / 41719 btu).

      So a 250 watt heater, running continuously in a closed system, would take 48 hours to raise the water temperature 5 degrees? Unless I'm missing something? I'm just a humble english major, after all!

      Thanks,

      Bill

    8. #68
      mplskoi is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by cottagefog View Post
      Looks good so far! I am a little lost in your layers of liners and how the water got outside of the liner and onto the dirt (mud) floor.

      what are the liner (s) made of? Just curious.

      With those 4x4s bowing like that, now you understand what constant pressure those 4xx4s will be under the rest of their life!

      It will be neat to find out what temperature your water and greenhouse air will be maintained at through your endeavor.
      Constant pressure and instant. A previous poster suggested that bowing would happen over time. I expected that it would happen immediately as it did. Now that Bill knows how much bowing WANTS to happen, I think it would be wise to actually double up on cross members. Should one fail hopefully those adjacent to it hold on.

    9. #69
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      Bill, glad you are considering the SG filter system. These are one of the most ingenious and simple filters ever designed. This KP community has shared lots of info and tweaked and refined them to a high level.

    10. #70
      icu2's Avatar
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      I think you may regret the 6 mil poly liner since most of mine doesn't last much
      longer than a few years.
      I put drains in all my s/g filters too. It's easy to do and makes draining them possible if
      I have a need to not use them for long periods, and it does give a "poof" of
      dirty water when you open them when doing regular cleaning... especially if there
      isn't much of a prefilter before them. If larger debris does make it through the pump
      and into the bottom, a 2" drain will release most of it.
      --Steve

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