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    Thread: Thermal shock?

    1. #1
      Reeves is offline Junior Member
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      Thermal shock?

      I recently added some new koi to my pond and a few days later had an unexpected temperature drop. Yesterday being the coldest with some ice forming. I have air stones and a deicer. Temp in shallower spots was reading at 35f. Today temp is warming, water is about 36-37f. I found 4 of the koi at the bottom of the pond looking dead. Pulled them out and put them in a 10 gallon bin with pond water. 3 still alive, one swimming fairly normally, one floating around sideways but can right itself briefly, one moving mouth and gills but laying on side- started moving a bit and righting itself for very short periods of time.

      I added a heater to bring the water temp up slowly but Iím worried about shocking them more. Have an air stone in with them as well. I appreciate any advice, all water parameters are good and all other fish are acting just fine, no obvious signs of disease in any of them.

    2. #2
      KTownKoinut is offline Senior Member
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      What sorta temps are they coming from before ya scored 'em?

    3. #3
      Reeves is offline Junior Member
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      I’m not sure- I believe they would’ve been in a similar climate but they were shipped to me so I can’t be sure. Acclimated them slowly when they arrived and they’d been doing great until we had a huge temp drop from about 55-60s to about 25, and now going back up to 50s today. Pond is about 1200+ gallons and about 3.5ft or so at the deepest point, so the temp does change slowly, yet this was a massive drop so I’m sure a huge stressor.

    4. #4
      ademink's Avatar
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      How long ago did you add them to the pond? Also echoing the question above, what state did they ship from? I'm in Indiana and we went from 50 to 11-14 degrees for two days. The water temps change somewhat with that swing but not so drastically it affects my fish.

      Can you share the numbers of your water parameters for:
      Ammonia
      pH
      Nitrite
      KH
      Andrea
      Koi Health Care Committee Member



    5. #5
      Reeves is offline Junior Member
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      They shipped from North Carolina and I’m in southwest Missouri. They were added to the pond Wednesday around noon. Apart from one swimming near the surface last night and then floating on its side awkwardly (around the coldest point last night), they’ve seemed totally fine. Tested nitrates, nitrites, and pH today- 0,0, and 7.0. I did have the air stones to one side of the deep end, which I realized today may have caused the deep end to get too cold, so I moved them toward the shallow area instead. All other fish still in the pond are acting completely normal, no signs of any illness or abnormalities.

    6. #6
      Reeves is offline Junior Member
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      This is the one that died- if Iím missing anything physical?

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    7. #7
      KTownKoinut is offline Senior Member
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      That sucks, man! I hope the rest of them pull through for ya!

    8. #8
      Reeves is offline Junior Member
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      This was the first video around 2pm, after 2 hours of slowly raising temp once removed from pond. Note the orange one on bottom only sat up like this a couple of times, but has mostly been on its side.


    9. #9
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      This is just now, about 5:30pm

    10. #10
      Reeves is offline Junior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by KTownKoinut View Post
      That sucks, man! I hope the rest of them pull through for ya!
      Thanks, so do I. I’m really hoping at least the two stronger ones will. I’m more than willing to do whatever I can to give them the best chance, I just don’t know what else I can do. Kicking myself for adding them when I did. Since the winters are generally pretty mild here I thought I’d be okay, but now I’m worried that it was a stupid decision.

    11. #11
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      I don't think that the KH is really a problem, but I would really like to see you run a KH test. The pH at 7, though many think this is ideal, is generally a problem and the KH will help us understand whether it is or not. Since the fish were removed from the pond due to the temperature shock, you will need to set up an inside facility with good filtration for the winter, as moving them back to cold water is most likely going to cause them to suffer temperature shock again and not survive.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Richard

    12. #12
      Reeves is offline Junior Member
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      Double checked with both liquid and strip tests- on strip pH is between 7-7.5. Liquid is 7.5. KH strip is between 120-180. Liquid is 143.2.

      They two stronger ones are acting completely normal now, temp is about 60. The worse off one is still laying on side, moving gills and mouth but barely moving fins. I don’t want to raise temp too fast, but I’m in a tough place where my minimum heater setting is 68, and living between one unheated house and one heater apartment, so I’ve been turning the heater on and off going up by 1-2 degrees at a time over 7+ hours.

      I absolutely don’t want to return them to the pond if they do recover, so I’m happy to set up a more suitable indoor tank, but I’m worried about cycling and stressing them, so I’d really appreciate any tips. I’m pretty new to ponds (came with the house I bought), but have experience keeping aquariums, though it’s been a while.

    13. #13
      ademink's Avatar
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      I'm puzzled that your KH is 143 and your pH is only 7.5. It should be 8.3 or so.

      Are you using a wide range pH test kit or a high range one?
      Last edited by ademink; 4 Weeks Ago at 09:39 PM.
      Andrea
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    14. #14
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Temperature drops are much more stressful than temperature increases. I would go ahead and raise the temperature to at least the heater minimum and not worry about cycling it on and off.

      I am not sure what the KH is coming from, but for most of us, it is carbonate/bicarbonate/carbon dioxide group, and the stable pH is about 8.3. Your KH should be keeping the pH stable morning to evening, which is what we want. If the KH were below 80ppm, then we would worry about potential pH crashes which are extremely stressful.

      While cycling, I would have a SeaChem Ammonia Alert card in the facility to assure that the toxic ammonia is bound, utilizing Safe, Prime, Cloram-X or similar chloramine treatment. As the filter comes on line and starts to produce nitrites, I would add salt at 1 pound per 100 gallons, (0.12%), until the nitrites return to zero to protect the fish from brown blood disease. Stability is the key, good temperature, no toxic ammonia, no untreated nitrites.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    15. #15
      Reeves is offline Junior Member
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      It’s wide range pH on the liquid test. Both strips and liquid are API tests. The orange one floating on its side just died. And I found another of the new group dead behind a fold in the liner of the main pond after counting and recounting and realizing I was missing one. I believe it’s been in that spot since I found the other 4. Everyone else is officially counted for and acting normally. Two survivors that were affected are still doing well and currently acting completely normal- no rolling on sides or backward, no issues keeping themselves righted and swimming with coordination.

      Do you all have recommendations for indoor enclosures size and equipment? I’d like to set these guys up right and have something I can use in the future if I need to quarantine/treat/etc any others. I’d rather invest in a proper setup than lose my fish trying to make a poor setup work.

    16. #16
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      Quote Originally Posted by ademink View Post
      I'm puzzled that your KH is 143 and your pH is only 7.5. It should be 8.3 or so.

      Are you using a wide range pH test kit or a high range one?
      My water in CA had a pH of 8.6 and a KH of zero. Is there a chart that supports your comments about it? I ask because I have never believed they were related. I realize that using baking soda is predictable but I never thought it was just based on natural water parameters.
      people like to vehemently defend their purchases and find it incredulous that anything could be better

    17. #17
      KTownKoinut is offline Senior Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by Russell Peters View Post
      My water in CA had a pH of 8.6 and a KH of zero. Is there a chart that supports your comments about it? I ask because I have never believed they were related. I realize that using baking soda is predictable but I never thought it was just based on natural water parameters.
      There's a first.....this should be a gooder...... lol

      I've alwayzz heard there're related, buuut.....enlighten us, Rus.
      Last edited by KTownKoinut; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:05 PM.

    18. #18
      ademink's Avatar
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      Should have said I was speaking from my personal experience.

      Sorry.
      Andrea
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    19. #19
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Reeves View Post
      It’s wide range pH on the liquid test. Both strips and liquid are API tests. The orange one floating on its side just died. And I found another of the new group dead behind a fold in the liner of the main pond after counting and recounting and realizing I was missing one. I believe it’s been in that spot since I found the other 4. Everyone else is officially counted for and acting normally. Two survivors that were affected are still doing well and currently acting completely normal- no rolling on sides or backward, no issues keeping themselves righted and swimming with coordination.

      Do you all have recommendations for indoor enclosures size and equipment? I’d like to set these guys up right and have something I can use in the future if I need to quarantine/treat/etc any others. I’d rather invest in a proper setup than lose my fish trying to make a poor setup work.
      The wide range test is really only good for giving information on which of the other two test kits is the correct one. The differences in color are not sufficient and the color chart shows too big a range from one color to the next. The most useful test kit for your situation is the high range pH test. API has three pH test kits. One is identified as just pH Test Kit and it is good from pH 6.0 to pH 7.6 with the different color chips indicating generally pH 0.4 steps. The wide range is identified as Wide Range pH Test Kit and it tests the range from pH 5 to pH 9, with the different color chips generally showing a pH 1.0 difference. The third test kit is identified as the High Range pH test kit and it tests from pH 7.4 to pH 8.8, with the color chip differences being pH 0.4.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    20. #20
      Hope J is offline Senior Member
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      Following. I live outside of Augusta, GA and we usually don't have wild temperature swings so pond maintenance can stay pretty normal even in Winter but the last few weeks we've had much cooler weather and nights dropping into the 20's with ice in the ponds. I have a heater but it's a Copper coil so it will have to go inside a bucket of water in the pond and not directly in the pond water.

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