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    Thread: Bottom Drain....Like Flush'n the Toilet!!?? lol

    1. #1
      KTownKoinut is offline Senior Member
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      Bottom Drain....Like Flush'n the Toilet!!?? lol

      I'm planning my new Koi pond!!!! And I admit, I like finding outta the box ideas/think'n......so try to bear with me a bit....lol As I try to do a low maintance thing with the least equipment. I know, maybe out too lunch, but it's winter!!!.....Got lots of time to 'ponder'...... If you're a gear junky,.... and like spending your kid's inheritance on the latest......maybe skip to the next thread, so ya don't bust a gut on my thoughts....!!

      Short version, for those with better thangs to do!;;;;;I'm thinking of using a large, 4" bottom drain, with a knife valve, and pipe it down the slope into the abizz of the back 40. Rather then pull'n the crap into a settling chamber/filter thingy....what would be wrong with just opening the knife valve as needed to 'flush the toilet'!!!??? Maybe a couple times a week, but it would be pretty simple, wouldn't it? Flush away down the gulley never to be seen or delt with again!!!

      Stretched out version, for those that are bored, or helpful;;;; I got the idea from rig'n up my old pond at my mom's cave this spring!!!! That one is just a wee little 1500 gals. 12' dia round, (ya can spit across pothole) with a couple pumps push'n the water in a pretty good vortex,.... that the koi love to 'workout' in!! (No fat koi on my watch....lol) Probably about 3,000gph between the two pumps. But I noticed, the solids that don't make it into the solids handling pump, end up collecting in a nice, neat little pile, right in the vortex center! (like it does behind a barn...) In her pond, someone just has to reach in with a net, and scoop it up...I know, low tech...the way we roll!!! But, if I had put in a bottom drain, some 40 years ago, when I built the pond as a kid....the junk would be collecting right in it.

      My new build; 16' dia round, for the best vortex action (just my theory maybe, lol) About 6,200 gallons. 5-6' deep. Sloped floor to the aerated BD smack dab in the middle!! I'm think'n, I'll have two pumps with 3 or 4 'jets' push'n the vortex with about 8,000-9,000 gph.

      So, if you're not roll'n on the floor in histarics, and still with me, whatta ya think!!! Craziness, or what!??? Flush the crapper,...... or do I need to go 'mainstream', up into a boring ol settling thingy....????

      Yikes! I better proof read that again!!!.... Warning; more whacked ideas come'n, but I'll hit ya slow to start!!!....

      Cheers,
      KTK
      Last edited by KTownKoinut; 11-23-2020 at 10:17 AM.

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    2. #2
      KTownKoinut is offline Senior Member
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      PS; I'll be adding something for the fines, and an anoxic system too.

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      Fishmover is offline Supporting Member
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      You would not be the first to do this.
      Will it work, kinda. Gunk will end up settling down in the pipe, and when you open the valve it will pull some stuff around the drain that has settled on the bottom.

      The issue is it just will not do as good of a job as if it was constantly moving water through the drain. Stuff will build up in areas and continue to build up, and will require more manual intervention to clean what is settling on the bottom.

      I am all for not risking the kids future by saving some coin on pond equipment, but there are cheap options for running the bottom drain line constantly.


      Been ponding for a while, with lots of successes, and lots of failures.

    4. #4
      *Ci*'s Avatar
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      Think of a settling tank this way - instead of the waste sitting in the bottom drain waiting for you to ‘flush’ it manually, it is moved continuously to the bottom of the cone shaped SC where you can set up a sump pump on a timer to flush it automatically however often you want. I have my SC set up exactly this way. The timer flushes the SC for 15 sec, every 2 hours and I have an auto top up of the water. I basically do zero maintenance on my SC. It is a cheap and easy form of prefiltration for those who don’t have the means (or desire) for a sieve or RDF.

      You have to have a pump and piping for flow to your filters anyway, so it makes sense to consolidate your plumbing and use the bottom drain for an egress point and have the SC inline as a prefilter on the way to your filters.
      Last edited by *Ci*; 11-23-2020 at 09:37 AM.
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      Cheers,
      Ci


    5. #5
      KTownKoinut is offline Senior Member
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      Thanks both for the input!!! I'm listen'n....what SC would ya suggest then? I've never looked into them.

    6. #6
      *Ci*'s Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by KTownKoinut View Post
      Thanks both for the input!!! I'm listen'n....what SC would ya suggest then? I've never looked into them.
      Here is the problem. SC’s are old school and out of fashion in ponding, so not many purpose manufactured items available (especially in Canada where our choices are almost nil for any good pond equipment).

      One of my tanks is an ex-DFO fish hatchery Swirl Separator that I was lucky to find for free when the hatchery re-did their filtration. People use barrels, plastic IBC totes and even concrete or rubber lined chambers, but the key is to have that cone shape so you can pump out the concentrated debris rather than having to dump the whole tank all the time.
      You can buy new plastic cone shaped tanks from company’s that specialize in them - I have another SC made of one of these that I got in Washington. You would have to DIY all the plumbing connections.

      Below is the hatchery fibreglass swirl separator:
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      Cheers,
      Ci


    7. #7
      KTownKoinut is offline Senior Member
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      Thanks, C!! Food for thoughts, for sure...huuuummmmmmm lol

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      Mine is design similarly to Ci's except it doesn't use a BD but uses a "trough" so no SC but uses a RDF that
      is fed from skimmers and mid water pickups. I'm not sure if you're water supply is a municipal supply or a private
      well, but I find my well is much easier to use with this design without the need to worry about chloramine. It
      also auto flushes every 4 hours to waste and auto fills. It's based on a design from Onishi (link)...





      --Steve



      Koiphen 2021 Koi Person of the Year!

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      Lots of folks also use IBC totes as settlement chambers

      Here is a thread that might give some inspiration.
      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...C-tote-filters

      I personally have used a 275 gallon tote with a 55 gallon barrel inside of it full of k1, with the k1 acting as a static pre-filter.


      Been ponding for a while, with lots of successes, and lots of failures.

    10. #10
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      I better get too make'n coin....!!!! Will chat later....

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      I see what you're getting at. I have a 1500G pond, oval shaped, 13x7 with shelves, 4.5 feet deep. The lowest portion is an are only about 3x5 where everything settles. My pond runs in a vortex motion but only near the top shelf where the fish like to exercise. At the bottom, everything is calm where the fish sleep/rest. I vacuum this small area almost daily (it takes 5 min or less to clear). If I was to redo my pond again I am thinking of adding an even smaller bottom of perhaps 2x2x1'deep where everything will eventually settle. This for when I get old. I would put a sump pump in and cover the hole with a plastic grate so that the fish don't have access to it. So to clean, just turn on the sump pump for a couple of minutes. Collect the wastewater for watering the garden.

      In regards to a sloped bottom. I would think the fish would rather have a fairly flat floor to sleep on rather than a sloped one.

      In regards to poop's slow movement to a settling 'area,' I think this is the best scenario. Bacteria/pathogens in poop are in their own microcosm. They are happy being in this microcosm because they have their food supply that would last them for awhile. They become unhappy and pathogenic if disturbed; they will feel threatened. So poop should not be exposed to constant shear forces. The best way of getting rid of poop is via a surprise attack by flushing or vacuuming them straight out of the system where they wouldn't even know what happened. But before that, poop/bacteria should have minimal or no shear forces acting upon them.

      In regards to a bottom drain, the bottom drain pipe would have to go out at some point where the valve is. This would be exposed to freezing temperatures where it could burst especially if there is no constant flow running through it.

      You might also want to consider a pond shape that is less exposed to the sun unless you want to build a cover such as a bridge, roof, etc. Sun exposure is beneficial for fish to a certain point. But overexposure to the sun will unnecessarily 'feed' your pond as algae build sugars from photosynthesis.
      Time you enjoy wasting is not wasted time. ---- Marthe Troly-Curtin

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    12. #12
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      Very intereting stuff, KR!!! I sure don't wanna **** off them poop bacteria dudes!!!!

      That's the first time I've heard of that, but it makes a lot of sense! That might explain why my mbuna in my Malawian tank, will sometimes flash a bit after a tank cleaning. In more scientific words,,,,I guess that's the crap bac, sport'n their cranky pants, from my sh!t disturb'n!....!? Did I break that down about right!?? lol

      Wow! What a conversation!!! I love it!!!

      I was plan'n on, my flusher pipe to have the knife valve with a long handle too operate it, near the pond like 6' down. The exposed end might have another knife valve just for an emergency, but otherwise, most of the pipe would be empty, untill the big flush-a-roo!!! I'd also have an air vent to the surface, right by the main knife valve to allow for no vacumn effect in the pipe.... Ooops!!! Just got a mental pic of some poor neighbor stand'n too close to the end of the pipe!!!....... SWOOOSSSSSHHHH!!!!! LOL Sorry, back too the serious bizz at hand.....

      The bottom drain, I'm also thinking should have an extra taper down into it.

      But, I gotta also think about the other systems mentioned by good folks above......Hard for me to just toss an idea outta my noggin....!!!!
      Last edited by KTownKoinut; 11-23-2020 at 08:45 PM.

    13. #13
      catfish whiskers's Avatar
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      When I first started this hobby back in the 60’s , I visited a local Japanese Gentleman that used a similar system . He had numerous bottom drains that each fed into a dry concrete chamber. Each outlet into the chamber had a vertical standpipe that would be removed to let the bottom drain water rush in , no valves were used.

    14. #14
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      Thanks for the post, CW! My pond will be 16' across though, and standups would be hard on my eyes....but I guess they'd act as a good level keeper! Sooooo, I'm actually go'n high tech with the knife valves!!! Cool!!!

      So, do ya think my idea might work? Lots of good flow from pumps, even adding another if needed, big air pump on the aerated BD also....
      Last edited by KTownKoinut; 11-23-2020 at 09:10 PM.

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      The sandpiper would be outside of the pond where the dirty water comes out


      Been ponding for a while, with lots of successes, and lots of failures.

    16. #16
      catfish whiskers's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by KTownKoinut View Post
      Thanks for the post, CW! My pond will be 16' across though, and standups would be hard on my eyes....but I guess they'd act as a good level keeper! Sooooo, I'm actually go'n high tech with the knife valves!!! Cool!!!

      So, do ya think my idea might work? Lots of good flow from pumps, even adding another if needed, big air pump on the aerated BD also....
      The vertical stand pipes were inside the chamber , which was equal to pond level . The chamber although dry , would prevent the pond from completely draining because if a leak occurred in a drain pipe , or a stand pipe leaked , the drain water would stop flowing once the water level in the chamber and pond equalized.
      Your idea will work , but why not just build a settling chamber that will collect waste and then flush the waste from it. If You feed Your bottom drain water into a settling chamber , and draw your pump(s) from it ,and properly size it so that it’s volume is at least 10% of the amount of Your pumps flow , bottom drain waste will continuously be collected in the settling chamber where it can be easily flushed .

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      Ok, thanks!!

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      From the writings of Peter Waddington:

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      Thanks, but I don't need to collect the shize.....I've got an awesome, brush filled gulley behind my yard that would gladly take a quick flush, never to be seen again!!!!

      And the water that goes out with the flush, is the water change water. I must be out to lunch, or somethin...'cause I really don't see the need yet too move things too settle out into a chamber/ box too save the water, then have too do a water change anyway....Yikes, what am I miss'n here!!??? lol
      Last edited by KTownKoinut; 11-24-2020 at 10:33 AM.

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      Quote Originally Posted by KTownKoinut View Post
      Thanks, but I don't need to collect the shize.....I've got an awesome, brush filled gulley behind my yard that would gladly take a quick flush, never to be seen again!!!!
      Regardless of mechanics, you are always collecting and disposing. In your situation you are trying to use the bottom of your pond as the collection of poop and the pipe is the means of disposing.

      Just going to call this out. If the bottom drain is always flowing, then debris is always gravitating towards the drain as it is created/disturbed in the pond.
      A bottom drain that only flows during flushing is not going to remove all of the poop/debris that has settled on the bottom of the pond.


      Been ponding for a while, with lots of successes, and lots of failures.

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