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  • Results 1 to 16 of 16

    Thread: Pipe sizing

    1. #1
      Ajzsabkoi is offline Junior Member
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      Pipe sizing

      Final preparations before the liner is put in place. Dig out is 7 wide by 13 length depth is at 3 foot. Settling chamber is 5 length by 4 wide 4 feet Depth. This leads to a 2x2x3 depth bio with 4cf of k1/ bioflow MBBR. Pump to tprs is a reeflo hammerhead/barracuda hybrid.
      I have a couple of uncertainties:
      size of bottom drain pipe I believe I need 2 total cause of the length, but should I go with double 4 or double 3 drains?
      With the determined size drains settling chamber pre-filter will be bactitwist filled pot that flows to bio chamber. Should this be 4 pipe or double 3 or a full 6, to prevent risk of flooding or drawing down in excess? Bottom drain cutoffs will consist of applicable stand pipes.

      The remainder of the sketch involves existing 1700 gallons with proposed double retro drains suction pulled by reeflo hammer/head, priming pot to a 4foot by 16foot bog. Skimmer is a no-niche flow to double phoam phractonators. This is for another post, but wanted to include since this is contained in the sketch.
      Any advice on the plumbing would be greatly appreciated as well as any further advice on the over all.
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    2. #2
      icu2's Avatar
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      Welcome and thanks for joining Koiphen!

      Question, are you using two different pumps or is the 1700 gallon pond running on the same
      one as the main pond's ReeFlo?
      The main pond design looks similar to how I had my first pond plumbed. I had 2 bactitwist pre filters
      and ran a 4" pipe from each prefilter to my moving bed filters (I had two separate ones). I had a 5500 gph
      pump and it work pretty well. Depending on how you build the mbbr you may have a challenge with the
      media collecting on the output to the pump.

      Looking forward to watching the build!
      --Steve

    3. #3
      Ajzsabkoi is offline Junior Member
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      Very sorry for the confusion always difficult to explain design plans as there is so many things involved. There are actually two reeflo hammerhead/barracudas one for the new 13x7 2k gallon in construction phase. The second is for the 1700 gallon existing. These are essentially two ponds that are to be connected by a 3 foot wide tunnel. I have been concerned about mbbr media entering the pump so suggestions are needed on this. I have a 2x2 chamber that I was going to use as my pump plumbing house area but I could move this outside of the pit sc/ mbbr. The sc,mbbr is an in ground pressure treated framed 7x4x4 liner lined. Mbbr is 2x2x3 liner lined 9” air membrane in the bottom. The bottom drains are what I am debating on if I should go with dual 4” drains or with two 3”. 4” may be pushing the settling chamber limits for dwell time @ approx 600g, as well as not having enough flow through the 4” drains to prevent clogging. Can there be too much sweeping current with two 4” drains and tprs. This seems like it is a lot of flow for the size and I see this setup in much high volumes builds.
      Once the drain sizes are recommended, the settling chamber to mbbr chamber and then the pre pump chamber pipe size is needed. I was thinking that 4” would be the choice but just want to be sure before cutting holes.
      The existing 1700 gallon is another project/ post and may have to be redone since retro drains do not have a good reputation for being efficient but hate to drain re-line.
      Much appreciated for your assistance and expertise

    4. #4
      icu2's Avatar
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      No worries! It's always hard to envision what others "see" in a description.
      Personally I'd make the BD pipes 4" with a clean out built in to make it easier to clear the
      pipes if they develop a clog. 2500 gph min. is usually suggested for a 4" BD pipe so you're
      on the lower edge of flow imo... but dropping them to 3" limits you forever from increasing
      the flow from them if you ever wanted to.

      I think there are other issues with the design but will leave it at the BD pipe size since that's
      where you're at... but know that both ponds need to work together with all the plumbing, ingress
      and egress points to and from the pond, currents, etc... so consider making a "master" plan for everything
      before getting too far along and then you can always make small modifications as you progress, while still
      having a good base of the overall filtration goals.
      --Steve

    5. #5
      Ajzsabkoi is offline Junior Member
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      Jack, your advice is most appreciated. This settles it as I will run dual 4” bottom drains spaced 4 feet from each other. Should cover the length nicely. I am really interested in what you would recommend. I have done a lot of research and reading. Trying to incorporate what I have seen in other post designs as well as what I currently have in use. On this new section of construction: dual 4” drains leading to settling chamber I have considered instead of an aerated mbbr, go with a Bakki shower. I have followed these on a growing number of builds with high success. What do you feel about this in place of the mbbr?
      If this is not something you would recommend I would absolutely be open to your experience. Can always chance in the construction phase but once the liner is in and filled it’s not easily rectified.
      Again I appreciate your input

    6. #6
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ajzsabkoi View Post
      Jack, your advice is most appreciated. This settles it as I will run dual 4 bottom drains spaced 4 feet from each other. Should cover the length nicely. I am really interested in what you would recommend. I have done a lot of research and reading. Trying to incorporate what I have seen in other post designs as well as what I currently have in use. On this new section of construction: dual 4 drains leading to settling chamber I have considered instead of an aerated mbbr, go with a Bakki shower. I have followed these on a growing number of builds with high success. What do you feel about this in place of the mbbr?
      If this is not something you would recommend I would absolutely be open to your experience. Can always chance in the construction phase but once the liner is in and filled its not easily rectified.
      Again I appreciate your input
      Sorry for the late post approval! But you should be cleared now and no more waiting.
      Oh, and I'm actually Steve... Jack Welch is the name of the guy who said the little quote at the bottom of my signature file.

      I have a shower filter and it's the best bio filter I've ever tried. The one thing it does need though is well mechanically
      filtered water so your SC has to be working well. I'm not sure of your budget but if you can swing it, a sieve filter will
      cut your maintenance drastically and also insure your water is suited for a shower filter. Showers aren't easily cleaned
      and things can slip by a SC more than a sieve. Another option if using a SC and shower is some matting on top of the
      shower to catch debris that might happen to get by the SC. You do of course have to change things around and put
      your pump after the SC to feed the shower with the bottom tray above pond level and then gravity feed your tpr's.
      If you do use the SC and baci-twist prefilter to the mb filter I'd use 4" pipes from the prefilters.

      I'm not a big fan of bog style filters but a sand and gravel (s/g) filter would be a good substitute for it and
      give you very clear water.

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...-Gravel-Filter

      Foam fractionators work well but I found with mine that I used it for about a year in the spring time and
      then it made very little foam and I didn't get enough DOC's to need to run it any longer.
      I'd also add a skimmer in the larger pond too.

      I'm curious how you'll do the tunnel?
      --Steve

    7. #7
      icu2's Avatar
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      I forgot one more thing...
      I'd also change the tpr's so they'd flow where the red arrows are. It'll help make
      counter currents around each BD.

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      --Steve

    8. #8
      REVIV is offline Junior Member
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      It is clear you have put some thought into this design. I too look forward to seeing your progress.

      The other part of going with larger BD lines is the flow that is recommended to keep them clear. There is also a limit on flow (for a given volume) for the settling chamber to work properly. The information I found says the following,

      "A three inch BD will effectively sweep a 4 foot radius, a three inch bottom drain needs a minimum flow of 1500 gallons per hour, (gph) to prevent sediment from settling out in the line. This 1500 gph needs a 150 gallon (10%) settlement tank to effectively settle out the heavier than water solids. 2500 gph/250 gallon tank is better and preferred for a three inch BD.

      A four inch BD will effectively sweep a 6 foot radius, a four inch bottom drain needs a minimum flow of 2500 gallons per hour, (gph) to prevent sediment from settling out in the line. This 2500 gph needs a 250 gallon (10%) settlement tank to effectively settle out the heavier than water solids. 3500 gph/350 gallon tank is better and preferred for a 4 inch BD. The line from the bottom drain flowing into the settlement chamber is what we call gravity flow. "


      I am in the middle of my build (https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...2nd-Pond-Build) and am using two 4" BD's, but my pond is ~3 times bigger. I liked the idea of a SC too, but gave up trying to place one big enough to handle the 7000 gph I plan to run through the two BDs (3500gphx2).

      I would be concerned that this level of flow may overwhelm your SC and could be a bit more than you would need or like in a pond that size. Steve - do you have any concerns here? I think I would consider using one 4 " and trying to use your returns to help sweep the extra space or go with two 3". Are you planning to use aerated BDs?

      I do like the idea of a bog. I have one on my 1000g pond and have one in my design for the new pond. The 1000g has been running for 4 seasons and has aquarium clear water. I understand there will be maintenance involved and I will likely have a major pruning cleaning every few years, but I love the plants and believe it is a helps water quality too. Your pond - your choice.

    9. #9
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by REVIV View Post
      It is clear you have put some thought into this design. I too look forward to seeing your progress.

      The other part of going with larger BD lines is the flow that is recommended to keep them clear. There is also a limit on flow (for a given volume) for the settling chamber to work properly. The information I found says the following,

      "A three inch BD will effectively sweep a 4 foot radius, a three inch bottom drain needs a minimum flow of 1500 gallons per hour, (gph) to prevent sediment from settling out in the line. This 1500 gph needs a 150 gallon (10%) settlement tank to effectively settle out the heavier than water solids. 2500 gph/250 gallon tank is better and preferred for a three inch BD.

      A four inch BD will effectively sweep a 6 foot radius, a four inch bottom drain needs a minimum flow of 2500 gallons per hour, (gph) to prevent sediment from settling out in the line. This 2500 gph needs a 250 gallon (10%) settlement tank to effectively settle out the heavier than water solids. 3500 gph/350 gallon tank is better and preferred for a 4 inch BD.The line from the bottom drain flowing into the settlement chamber is what we call gravity flow. "


      I am in the middle of my build (https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...2nd-Pond-Build) and am using two 4" BD's, but my pond is ~3 times bigger. I liked the idea of a SC too, but gave up trying to place one big enough to handle the 7000 gph I plan to run through the two BDs (3500gphx2).

      I would be concerned that this level of flow may overwhelm your SC and could be a bit more than you would need or like in a pond that size. Steve - do you have any concerns here? I think I would consider using one 4 " and trying to use your returns to help sweep the extra space or go with two 3". Are you planning to use aerated BDs?

      I do like the idea of a bog. I have one on my 1000g pond and have one in my design for the new pond. The 1000g has been running for 4 seasons and has aquarium clear water. I understand there will be maintenance involved and I will likely have a major pruning cleaning every few years, but I love the plants and believe it is a helps water quality too. Your pond - your choice.
      I've read your guidelines on BD size and flow rate here before and pretty much agree and follow them... but I found I could push
      the 10% flow rate rule a bit when prefilters are used in the SC because they will help catch debris from the lack of settling due to
      the higher flow rate.
      So I think a 600 gallon SC with prefilters should be fine with the pumps suggested. It looked like they come in different sizes but
      the largest looked to flow 6000 gph at 0' head, so realistically it'd flow maybe 4-5000 gph. I used an ES5500 with my 2 - 4" BD
      and a 500 gallon SC w/prefilters and the BD did eventually clog, but it took about 6 years before I had to clean them. And it is why
      I suggested at his flow rate I'd put in a planned way to clean them when needed... because I think at 2500-3000 gph per drain, it's
      only a matter of time before they start to collect debris.

      And like I mentioned earlier, after installing and maintaining both SC/prefilters and a sieve, I'd save up the money to buy a sieve
      every time and skip the need to worry about dwell times.
      --Steve

    10. #10
      REVIV is offline Junior Member
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      Okay, that sounds reasonable to expect to clean out the lines periodically - and you probably need to regardless. Given that, two 4" would definitely reduce the drawn down in SC and make it easier to clear lines if needed so I'll agree with Steve.

    11. #11
      danbo is offline Senior Member
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      Re flow-rate in bottom drain pipes, I put together an xls which calculates the flowrate based on length of pipe, internal diameter of pipe, head difference between inlet and outlet + temperature. Spreadsheet calculates whether the flow will be turbulent (Re>4000) or laminar (Re<2000) and uses Hazen-Williams formula for turbulent flow and Poiseuilles Eqn for laminar. In between 2000 < Re < 4000, the calc uses the 'weighted average' flow. Maybe of some use. (sorry...all metric units)

      Dan
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      Last edited by icu2; 11-26-2020 at 02:48 PM. Reason: Help with text

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      danbo is offline Senior Member
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      Don't know why my post appears to be truncated? Anyway ....In between 2000

    13. #13
      icu2's Avatar
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      Quote Originally Posted by danbo View Post
      Don't know why my post appears to be truncated? Anyway ....In between 2000
      Dan, I think the forum is reading "< RE" (but without the spaces) as an open html tag and it doesn't know what
      to do with the text after it, so I just edited the text in the first post so it displays the entire sentence. Just fwiw...
      --Steve

    14. #14
      Ajzsabkoi is offline Junior Member
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      Cant express my appreciation for all your experience and advice. I have given all your information a great deal of thought as well as looking at my existing and pending configuration. I really am looking to a shower filter. I have always been impressed with those that had these running and the reports of growth. I have always questioned my mbbr as I never could get it to flow and boil properly just chalked it up has never having any loss. I believe mbbrs a great bio filter but this industry changes and different things work for each ones own configuration. So I have done some reconfigured easy now while the weather is poor and the liner is not in place. I want to stick with dual 4 drains (a large maple is nearby and I am very rural with wind daily) I am looking at a different pump for the SC I have done some mock-up placement and measuring and looking at a pump that is 5k at 10 feet lift I will run 3 pipe to keep loss down. Ill repurposed the k1 and bio barrels in my top level bin of shower. The remaining three bins will be ceramic/pumic (I have to see whats local). I will have the shower gravity return into the existing 7x11 pond. The tunnel is really a cut through with a bridge over this cut through to create a tunnel/covered area. This tunnel is 2-1/2 wide and 2 depth for kois to pass back and forth and where liners seamed. The bog is a perimeter area this will be pipe manifold under 12 inches of pea gravel. Trying to fit this in to equal 50% of my total surface area. The manifold will have terminated ends for air blower to be used for back flushing. Bog liner will have a waste outlet for flushing (this is similar to the s/g less the sand) . I have relocated the bog outlet to pour out into the new construction. I am a little lost on skimmer placement as this now changes current flows in both ponds. I will use the reeflo hammerhead for the existing pond retro bottom drains and pump this into the bog filter. The skimmer pump periha or jeboa with feed mode will be for the tprs possibly the foam fractionator have to see if this will be needed. Have to fit in the uv as well. Starts to get overwhelming trying to fit everything in. So a couple of things for you to comment: am I over pumping for such a small volume? I am trying to get the bottom drain flow within limits and this high flow rate will be handled by the shower.
      Since I pulled out the mbbr from the sc pit this gives me more sc volume. What would you recommend for pre-filtering the pump to shower in the settling chamber (brushes, jap mat, sieve cloth). Also can you direct me to any information pertaining to amount of media in shower. I have found a few pieces of information 10 lbs per 500 gallons.
      Just anything that you can comment on or recommend would appreciate your experience and much easier to change now than once the liner is in place.
      Thanks and take care all!!!
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    15. #15
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      Need to correct my post from earlier in that the flow rate into the shower instead of 5k at 10 feet lift. This should be 7-8k gph this will keep the 4” BD’s free and clear. Is this to much for the volume of total pond as well as for the shower? Don’t want to create such a pull into the bottom drains that I run the risk of going loss. This just seems like way too much flow for total volume. This kind of flow is what is on many of the higher end constructions I see posted here.
      Sorry about this addition post
      Thanks again

    16. #16
      icu2's Avatar
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      For skimmer placement I'd pay more attention to prevailing winds on your property. They really effect how much your
      skimmers collect.

      If your shower dumps directly into the pond you shouldn't have any problem with just about any amount you wanted
      to flow to it. 7-8k gph should be fine. And the BD's should flow that without a problem. What are the BD's going to in
      the SC? Are those the prefilters? If so, they shouldn't go to them directly... the BD's should just feed into the SC in the
      lower 1/4 or so.
      Here's a couple of threads about shower flow rate:

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...amp-Flow-rates

      https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...-shower-filter

      I've read 2000 gph per cubic ft., but I don't think there's a hard fast rule. I don't know if you can have too much good media
      in a shower. I just put as much feather rock as each tray would hold:

      Name:  Shower level 2 5.30.17 resized.jpg
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      Fair warning: 8k gph flowing over a shower can create a lot of noise. Some people love the sound, some not so much.
      If the shower is exposed out by the pond be aware you will be able to hear it.
      --Steve

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