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    Thread: I知 overwhelmed and stressed

    1. #1
      Ktnjde is offline Supporting Member
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      Exclamation I知 overwhelmed and stressed

      I was an idiot and did not quarantine new fish. I知 paying the price - big time. I need some expert help to get my fish healthy. I have a 2300 gal pond with 7 koi and 8 goldfish. When I got the new koi, one died overnight and two days later I noticed one had red lesions. Now many of them have lesions. The original one has healed.

      I致e treated 3x with Microbe-Lift BSDT and am now using sabbactisun and their other product (don稚 have the name handy). I知 on day 6 of 10 on the follow up tx. My water parameters are good. Ph is a little high at 7.5 but that痴 how it runs out of the tap. Some of the fish are getting worse, not better.


      Please help

    2. #2
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      A pH of 7.5 is not high as most waters contain calcium ions and those are generally accompanied with carbonates/bicarbonates which force the pH toward a pH value of about 8.3. Best maintained with a KH test value of over 100.

      You don't mention what the numbers are for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, KH, or temperatures and we like numbers. Water "parameters are good" is not telling us much as the water could be the problem and if not right will not lead to a solution, so we always like to start there. Were the fish showing any specific activities, clamping, flashing, breaching, piping, isolation, normal swimming....? The actions will help to determine what the stressor is that has caused the fish to get worse.

      The use of the BSDT should have taken care of most of the parasites except flukes in the microscopic groupings, and for flukes you need a product like Fluke M or Prazi. The lesions will need treatment with an antibiotic most likely, and for that, unless you have a vet that will prescribe injectible antibiotics like Baytril or Amikacin, the next best thing is Tricide Neo. Regardless, it will require catching and sedating the fish with MS222 or Oil of Cloves so that the fish can be safely handled and treated.

      I have not seen anyone other than the manufacturer of the Sabbactisun and Parazoryne show any results of any kind so cannot speak to them, but the lesions are bacterial infections and for that if minor, time and the fishes natural immunity will take care of that like a scratched knee or minor kitchen cut, but for worse infections, antibiotics are needed.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    3. #3
      Ktnjde is offline Supporting Member
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      Thank you for responding. I will get the entire spectrum of parameters tomorrow.

    4. #4
      Nguyen365's Avatar
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      I'm sorry to hear. Didnt your dealer qt the koi before selling them to you or did you buy it from another hobbyist?
      -Tony
      KoiTime USA Vlog
      https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCJY...lOsl9hsezbmzSQ
      1st house paid off at age 36 bought 3/2016 4 years and 3 months

    5. #5
      Ktnjde is offline Supporting Member
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      I purchased the koi from an eBay vendor that I’ve purchased from before. He advised me that the fish had been quarantined.

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      Sorry for the multiple answers... the fish are flashing and are very quiet on the bottom. I see most of them rubbing. Two have obvious lesions. I’m not sure if I will be able to get them to treat them. I’m worried about that.

      This is my first major problem with my pond. I have not really paid attention over the years and things were mostly fine. I’m getting more serious and trying to learn as much as I can now.

      Thanks for your patience and assistance.

    7. #7
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      Another fish died

    8. #8
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Still interested in the numbers for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH, and temperature. I would also like to know what the pond size is, the age of the pond, the number and size of fish, the type and size of filters, and whether you have rocks in the pond. There is a lot that needs to be known to make educated guesses.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    9. #9
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      Still interested in the numbers for ammonia, nitrite, nitrate, pH, KH, and temperature. I would also like to know what the pond size is, the age of the pond, the number and size of fish, the type and size of filters, and whether you have rocks in the pond. There is a lot that needs to be known to make educated guesses.
      My apologies, I am not sure what happened. I posted the numbers this morning in a separate post. Anyway, here are the numbers.

      pH 7.5
      Ammonia. 0
      Phosphate 0 to .25 It was hard to distinguish
      Kh 89.5
      Nitrite 0
      I don稚 have a test for nitrate
      Water temp 66ー

      The pond is 6 weeks old and it was built by an Aquascape certified builder. It is 2400 gallons with a skimmer and waterfall filter. I currently have 6 aerator stones going. There are stones in the pond.

      There are 2 Koi that are 4 years old. 3 that are three years old and 2 that are new to me this year. The largest are the 4 year olds at about 12 inches long. The others range from 9-5. I have about 7 goldfish approximately 4 years old.

    10. #10
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      I suspected that your pond might be an Aquascape pond, but thought it was maybe 3 or 4 years old. The rock in the pond, unlike the advertisement, is not good and after about 3 years goes rotten, releasing hydrogen sulfide gas which is very toxic. But with your pond being so new, that should not be the problem. You might do a search of the forum on rock and hydrogen sulfide and start looking for a better filter system, and removing the rock will increase your total volume. Speaking of volume, most of those builders tend to exaggerate the size of their ponds. They might be that size before filling them with rock, so you might do well to get a salt meter or TDS meter to measure the starting salinity and then adding about 20 pounds of salt and waiting a day and getting a second reading and going to the salinity calculator at the top of the page to calculate actual volume. Doses of treatments can be dangerous if overdosed by much, and if as is fairly typical, your pond is not 2400 gallons and may not even be 1200 gallons.

      If, as you say, "the fish are flashing and are very quiet on the bottom. I see most of them rubbing. Two have obvious lesions." this would indicate parasites and they are best treated with daily doses of Proform C or BSDT as you have already done, but followed with Prazi or Fluke M for the flukes. I would probably redo the Proform C/BSDT with the Prazi or Fluke M added with the third dose.

      Catching the fish is much easier if you have the right equipment. A good pan net similar to https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Pond-De...0904408&sr=8-4, 24 inch size would be a minimum with this 30 inch net being much easier for catching. Support the fish in the water with that pan net and then using a sock net https://www.amazon.com/PondH2o-Koi-F...0904303&sr=8-5 transfer them to a treatment bowl. These nes were just quick searched on Amazon and you may find better or cheaper elsewhere.

      If you decide to catch and treat, we will go over treatment options when you have the needed equipment. Otherwise, you may find that the fish, given time with small enough lesions will heal themselves, like we heal an abrasion without antibiotics.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

      Zone 7 A/B
      Keep your words sweet. You never know when you may have to eat them.
      Richard

    11. #11
      Ktnjde is offline Supporting Member
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      I suspected that your pond might be an Aquascape pond, but thought it was maybe 3 or 4 years old. The rock in the pond, unlike the advertisement, is not good and after about 3 years goes rotten, releasing hydrogen sulfide gas which is very toxic. But with your pond being so new, that should not be the problem. You might do a search of the forum on rock and hydrogen sulfide and start looking for a better filter system, and removing the rock will increase your total volume. Speaking of volume, most of those builders tend to exaggerate the size of their ponds. They might be that size before filling them with rock, so you might do well to get a salt meter or TDS meter to measure the starting salinity and then adding about 20 pounds of salt and waiting a day and getting a second reading and going to the salinity calculator at the top of the page to calculate actual volume. Doses of treatments can be dangerous if overdosed by much, and if as is fairly typical, your pond is not 2400 gallons and may not even be 1200 gallons.

      If, as you say, "the fish are flashing and are very quiet on the bottom. I see most of them rubbing. Two have obvious lesions." this would indicate parasites and they are best treated with daily doses of Proform C or BSDT as you have already done, but followed with Prazi or Fluke M for the flukes. I would probably redo the Proform C/BSDT with the Prazi or Fluke M added with the third dose.

      Catching the fish is much easier if you have the right equipment. A good pan net similar to https://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Pond-De...0904408&sr=8-4, 24 inch size would be a minimum with this 30 inch net being much easier for catching. Support the fish in the water with that pan net and then using a sock net https://www.amazon.com/PondH2o-Koi-F...0904303&sr=8-5 transfer them to a treatment bowl. These nes were just quick searched on Amazon and you may find better or cheaper elsewhere.

      If you decide to catch and treat, we will go over treatment options when you have the needed equipment. Otherwise, you may find that the fish, given time with small enough lesions will heal themselves, like we heal an abrasion without antibiotics.
      Thank you again, for your response. I was able to catch the two fish that are showing lesions. My neighbor is a veterinarian and he gave them each a shot of long acting and short acting antibiotics. Baytril, I believe. We also were able to get some triple ointment salve on the wounds. They are still in a small quarantine tank. I put one back in the pond but it was getting bullied so I got it back out.

      The fish are acting so much better tonight. I知 on the last day of the Microblift regimen. I plan on doing a substantial water change and treat with Prazi Pro. I知 going to wait and see how the healing goes before doing another round of BSDT.

      I知 sorry that I did not do more homework about pond construction. This is my second pond in this house. I had one put in last year and hated it. We upgraded this year. I had a feeling that it wasn稚 the best set up. I致e spent ~$18,000 to get the pond to where it is now. I now recognize that I may have to make changes. Just not now! I知 too exhausted from this crisis.

      So, to salt or not to salt? I致e seen so many different opinions.

    12. #12
      SimonW is offline Senior Member
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      My experience is that even you have not got any new fish parasites can still break out when the fish are stressed. That was what happened to me when I moved out my koi from the overwintering tank to the outdoor pond this spring.

      So next time besides quarantine for new fish I will also do shotgun treatment with F/MG and fluke-M whenever I do something drastic, at least 2 ppm PP-treatment in accordance to the Royarkエs formula.

    13. #13
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      Quote Originally Posted by Ktnjde View Post
      Thank you again, for your response. I was able to catch the two fish that are showing lesions. My neighbor is a veterinarian and he gave them each a shot of long acting and short acting antibiotics. Baytril, I believe. We also were able to get some triple ointment salve on the wounds. They are still in a small quarantine tank. I put one back in the pond but it was getting bullied so I got it back out.

      The fish are acting so much better tonight. I’m on the last day of the Microblift regimen. I plan on doing a substantial water change and treat with Prazi Pro. I’m going to wait and see how the healing goes before doing another round of BSDT.

      I’m sorry that I did not do more homework about pond construction. This is my second pond in this house. I had one put in last year and hated it. We upgraded this year. I had a feeling that it wasn’t the best set up. I’ve spent ~$18,000 to get the pond to where it is now. I now recognize that I may have to make changes. Just not now! I’m too exhausted from this crisis.

      So, to salt or not to salt? I’ve seen so many different opinions.
      I don't use salt unless I'm putting it in for a specific reason, like high nitrites.
      --Steve


      Control your own destiny or someone else will.

      ---Jack Welch

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      Thank you all for your help. I’m going to do another round of 3 BSDT. The fish that were showing ulcers are better but now other fish are showing white spots. Should I go ahead with the BSDT?

      Ph 8
      Ammonia 0
      Kh 107
      Phosphate 0
      Nitrite 0
      Temp 67

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      Quote Originally Posted by Ktnjde View Post
      Thank you all for your help. I知 going to do another round of 3 BSDT. The fish that were showing ulcers are better but now other fish are showing white spots. Should I go ahead with the BSDT?

      Ph 8
      Ammonia 0
      Kh 107
      Phosphate 0
      Nitrite 0
      Temp 67
      White spot is Ich, you probably need a microscope to investigate skin scape.

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      Quote Originally Posted by Elsonkoi View Post
      White spot is Ich, you probably need a microscope to investigate skin scape.
      I知 waiting for a microscope to be delivered on Monday. I値l check it out then. Thanks.

    17. #17
      icu2's Avatar
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      Can you get a good picture of the fish with the spots? There are several different problems
      that could be described similarly.
      --Steve


      Control your own destiny or someone else will.

      ---Jack Welch

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      Here it is
      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Can you get a good picture of the fish with the spots? There are several different problems
      that could be described similarly.

    19. #19
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      Sorry, the pictures did not post. For help in posting refer to https://www.koiphen.com/forums/showt...sting+pictures

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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      Richard

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