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    Thread: One of my koi just died, need some advice for the rest of my pond

    1. #21
      icu2's Avatar
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      Years ago I bought something called BGDT (bacterial gill disease treatment) made by Argent but it's been discontinued.
      I saw it mentioned in that article so just wanted you to know. Chloramine T seems harder to find so maybe someone out
      there has a good source. I saw this on Amazon but not sure if it's the right stuff:

      https://www.amazon.com/HiMedia-GRM49...-1&tag=mh0b-20
      --Steve


      Control your own destiny or someone else will.

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    2. #22
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      Years ago I bought something called BGDT (bacterial gill disease treatment) made by Argent but it's been discontinued.
      I saw it mentioned in that article so just wanted you to know. Chloramine T seems harder to find so maybe someone out
      there has a good source. I saw this on Amazon but not sure if it's the right stuff:

      https://www.amazon.com/Eco-Labs-BSDT...0745234&sr=8-1
      Oh so wait is this not Chloramine T that you linked in this Amazon link? Is this the Proform-C instead?
      Last edited by deanzel; 4 Weeks Ago at 11:58 PM.

    3. #23
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      Quote Originally Posted by deanzel View Post
      Oh so wait is this not Chloramine T that you linked in this Amazon link? Is this the Proform-C instead?
      I'm sorry but yes, that's a Proform-C look alike (Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment), not Chloramine T. The Chloramine T (I think... like
      I said, I'm not sure it's the right stuff) is the link in post #21.
      --Steve


      Control your own destiny or someone else will.

      ---Jack Welch

    4. #24
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      Quote Originally Posted by icu2 View Post
      I'm sorry but yes, that's a Proform-C look alike (Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment), not Chloramine T. The Chloramine T
      is the link in post #21.
      Ok, thanks anyway. I ordered it and it is definitely cheaper (and will arrive faster) than the regular Proform-C that I ordered. Hopefully I can cancel that order in time...

    5. #25
      Fishmover is offline Supporting Member
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      If it was me, I would do a potassium permanganate treat cycle on the pond. Like 4 days of 3ppm treatments. There something in your water that is not nice. PP will oxidize many different parasites in the water.

      If not doing a PP treatment. Then a prazi and pro form c treatment would be my other suggestion.

    6. #26
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      So I applied the Crystal Clear Wipeout Bacterial Control powder that I had on hand yesterday. Is that decent enough to stop some of the possible bacterial infections that I have going on? I know that it knocks out your biofilter (good that I have more of the nitrifying packs on hand) over a 24 hour treatment period. I've got the Proform-C substitute coming by tomorrow night. I was going to add that to help deal with any potential parasites in the pond. Is this a good plan of action or should I get something more potent for bacterial infections? Any link for the exact Potassium Permanganate treatment that I should get?

      Also, what should I do before adding the BSDTGAL medicine (proform-c) tomorrow since there may be some of the previous Wipeout Bacterial Control remaining? Do like a large water change before adding the treatment in? Like 40-50%? Sorry for asking so many questions. Don't want to screw anything up :P

    7. #27
      RichToyBox's Avatar
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      As for the salt, 40 pounds in a 6000 gallon pond shouldn't be but 0.8%, assuming the volume of the pond is truly 6000 gallons. At this level it shouldn't hurt the plants, and shouldn't interfere with the Proform C or equivalent. I agree with icu2 that the treatment of choice for us would be the Chloramine-T. With gills in this condition, I would not use the PP treatment. If your treatment with Crystal Clear Wipeout Bacterial Control is an antibiotic that sets back the filters, then it will not have a long life in the pond as it is consumed by the killing of the filter bacteria and some of the other bacteria in the pond, so don't worry about any cross contamination actions of it with the Proform C. Proform C calls for a 25% water change before each days treatment for 3 days straight. This water change does 2 things, one dilutes the unwelcome bacteria and parasites and two improves the performance of the Proform C by reducing the stuff that will neutralize it like DOC's.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    8. #28
      deanzel is offline Member
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      Do you have an online source for the Chloramine T? Was the previous link correct?
      Last edited by deanzel; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:11 AM.

    9. #29
      SJK is offline Supporting Member
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      I was able to get Fluke-M and Chloramine-T from the UK eBay site about a month ago after being unable to find it in stock in the US. I just checked and his Fluke-M is still available, he’s sold out of Chloramine-T. But you might have better luck searching the UK website as it’s made in the UK and the vendor here in the US I talk to said they have not had a reliable supply of it and other products from the UK recently due to COVID-19. Interestingly he had two listings, one for US dollars and one for British pounds. So I was able to select the US dollars and pay through the US eBay with no problem. The product arrived about a week and a half later.

    10. #30
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      Just found his UK listing at link below. Thereís another one that was in US dollars but they are in Wales and will not ship to the US. I had no problems with this vendor a month ago. And his communications were excellent. I had the wrong phone number in eBay and sent him an email with the correct number. He responded very quickly and used it for shipping my Fluke-M to the US. It will take up to two weeks to get here so itís not as quick as from inside the US. Good luck.

      https://www.ebay.com/itm/KUSURI-CHLO...kAAOSwbF1aByGz
      Last edited by SJK; 3 Weeks Ago at 10:22 PM.

    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by SJK View Post
      Just found his UK listing at link below. Thereís another one that was in US dollars but they are in Wales and will not ship to the US. I had no problems with this vendor a month ago. And his communications were excellent. I had the wrong phone number in eBay and sent him an email with the correct number. He responded very quickly and used it for shipping my flu came to the US. It will take up to two weeks to get here so itís not as quick as from inside the US. Good luck and his communications were excellent. I had the wrong phone number in eBay and sent him an email with the correct number. He responded very quickly and used it for shipping my flu came to the US. It will take up to two weeks to get here so itís not as quick as from inside the US. Good luck

      https://www.ebay.com/itm/KUSURI-CHLO...kAAOSwbF1aByGz
      Thanks for the link. I had just looked into it and was about to purchase from this same vendor after you mentioned eBay and the UK. If this stuff is that good, I'll just buy the 4 bottles. Lol. Hopefully the shipping is just as fast!!
      Last edited by deanzel; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:25 AM.

    12. #32
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      The vet emailed me back earlier today and said that after looking at the pictures, the gill damage was much more severe than he had imagined, while there isn't a lot of other signs of illness on their skins/fins or eyes. There could be specific bacterial infection to the gills, but that would be exceedingly rare according to him. He said that I have great water quality and filtration which are often causes of bacterial problems. But there is no fin rot or skin sores that he would expect if there were bacterial infection present that severely in the gills. Parasites can cause damage to certain body systems that let secondary infections in but in this case, he is more worried about Koi Herpes Virus as the gill change is severe and the fish are mostly absent of other changes.

      He asked if the fish were lacking a slime coat when I found them, but I replied that I wasn't too sure. He said that often they find fish with KHV have an almost rough or sandpaper feel. I told him that they may have been a little rougher than usual, but I didn't notice anything drastic (albeit I don't know how "slimy" they should be in the first place). He said to try the Chloramine-T and Proform-C, but if losses continue, that we may need to test for KHV and retrace steps.

      This would be literally my worst nightmare...

      Edit: After looking online, I can now see just how bad the gill necrosis in my one Kohaku was (the gills if healthy are supposed to be dark red and the gills in my Kohaku were literally all white). It also had a bit of a nose notch which can be seen in one of the pictures. I'm not sure if this was there before (I don't think that it was). I now realize just how HARD taking care of koi can be. Hopefully I can get this semi-under-control...
      Last edited by deanzel; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:46 AM.

    13. #33
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      And the hits keep coming...

      I just had another fish die this morning. It was my favorite Goshiki, but this time it died primarily because it jumped out of the pond. It was fine in the morning around 7:30AM when we were outside, but at around 9AM I found it lying dead beside my pond during that short time period. It looks like it jumped out in my netted area and went through the bottom of the net. I took some more photos and posted them below along with taking water quality tests (levels seem to be fine again). I looked at the gills for this fish and it looked a lot better than my Ginrin Kohaku whose gills were full of necrosis and almost completely white. The Goshiki's gills were pretty red and I don't think that I noticed any weird patterns or splotching. There is obviously a lot of trauma on the outside of the fish, but I believe that is due to it jumping out and struggling outside (if I'm not mistaken). I know that the previous Ginrin Kohaku had a notched nose, but this Goshiki didn't seem to have any bad signs such as gill necrosis, sunken eyes or a notched nose.

      The primary cause of the death is the jumping out of the pond, but I am worried about what caused it to do that in the first place. I've had this Goshiki for almost 2 months or so and it was very used to the pond and never jumped around or was erratic. There must be something in the pond either parasitic, bacterial or viral. I have the Proform-C arriving later this evening and will apply it ASAP. I've also ordered Chloramine-T from the UK and it should get here in about a week and a half.

      I'm starting to run low on my nicer fish and it's getting very disheartening having a fish die every few days. I contacted my vet again trying to schedule something as soon as possible, but it seems like their schedule is packed up. I even offered to catch some fish and bring them in to the office, so we'll see if that may be possible. This is becoming a literal nightmare for me and I hope some of my little guys make it...

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      Last edited by deanzel; 3 Weeks Ago at 01:20 PM.

    14. #34
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      I just received the Microbe-Lift Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment (Proform-C equivalent) and am doing about a 30-40% water change. I've just got some questions about the application. It looks a little different with the dosing and frequency recommendations than Proform-C. There is only one recommend dosage (no different amounts for bacterial vs parasitic) and says it may be repeated every 8-12 hours and no mention on specific nimber of times that I should apply it. I've attached the picture of the instructions. Can someone give me what they used for the dosing and frequency for the treatment (more so the frequency). Should I try for like a 3 day treatment with new doses each day (after a water change)? Thanks.

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      Last edited by deanzel; 3 Weeks Ago at 03:27 PM.

    15. #35
      icu2's Avatar
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      I use that same Broad Spectrum Disease Treatment (BSDT) and this is how I do it....
      You did the water change which is good. Turn off any UV. I know you added salt at some point so be sure it's under .1%. The bottle
      says .15% but the less the better.
      I use the recommended 100ml per 1000 gallons. I repeat the doseage for 3 days in a row... so day one, water change and add the
      BSDT. After 24 hours do another water change and redose the BSDT again and leave for another 24 hours. Day 3 do a water change and
      redose with BSDT, and if you have treatment for flukes (Prazi or Fluke-M) add that too. If you were treating for flukes too I leave the
      BSDT and the fluke treatment for 7 days with no water changes. I don't think you have the fluke treatment so if not I'd just leave it
      for 24 hours on day 3 and do a water change. Plug any UV's back in. Don't bypass any filters during the treatments except if you have
      carbon canister type filters.

      Also, I add the BSDT a 1/3 of a dose into a 5 gallon bucket and then fill with water to dilute it before pouring around the edge of the
      pond. I give it a few minutes for the blue color to disperse a little (5-10 min) and then add another 1/3 and water, and add to the pond...
      repeating till the whole dose is added to the pond.

      I'd watch the fish and see how they do. Sometimes people will do another series of 3 treatments but I find usually the one 3 time shot
      kills most parasites. The notable exception is flukes, which it won't treat. They require the products mentioned earlier, Prazi or Fluke-M.

      Hope that helps!
      --Steve


      Control your own destiny or someone else will.

      ---Jack Welch

    16. #36
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      I did not notice the notch in the nose or any sign of sunken eyes which can be a sign of KHV or major costia outbreak. Because of that, I did not go directly to KHV. Costia will be killed with BSDT if present. If it is KHV, you should have the fish tested and if the test is positive, it is best to euthanize all the fish and start over. Any that survive could be carriers and new fish added will succumb. There are two tests, one is a blood draw and the other requires euthanizing a fish, so I would leave that entirely to the vet to assure proper procedures are followed.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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    17. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by RichToyBox View Post
      I did not notice the notch in the nose or any sign of sunken eyes which can be a sign of KHV or major costia outbreak. Because of that, I did not go directly to KHV. Costia will be killed with BSDT if present. If it is KHV, you should have the fish tested and if the test is positive, it is best to euthanize all the fish and start over. Any that survive could be carriers and new fish added will succumb. There are two tests, one is a blood draw and the other requires euthanizing a fish, so I would leave that entirely to the vet to assure proper procedures are followed.
      Well, I think that the BSDT treatment is going well. No more fish have died so far and they look ok... My vet contacted me again and we set up a pond evaluation for tomorrow afternoon. He'll do a skin scrape to test for parasites (he thinks bacteria is probably a secondary problem) and if none are present, he can do a blood draw to test for KHV. Hopefully it's just something parasitic and not KHV, as the test is pretty expensive since it requires overnight shipping to the testing center.

      He did mention that my Goshiki had pretty red/inflamed fins (pectoral, dorsal, and tail), and was wondering if they were present before it jumped out. I noticed it as well, but couldn't say if they were there before, or after it jumped out due to the trauma and heat drying her. Hopefully I can get some kind of conclusion to this nightmare in the near future...

    18. #38
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      The vet did an at-home pond inspection today and took blood draws from 2 different fish. Yesterday was the last day of the Proform-C treatment, and the pond looked better. Most of the fish seemed to be acting normal and the bigger ones "looked good" in that they weren't displaying any weird behaviors or had redness on their fins. We caught 3 fish and did skin scrapes on all of them, and found nothing parasitic. Of course, I had also just finished the course of Proform-C treatment so a lot of the parasites (if there were some) would have been killed off.

      2 of the fish looked fine and had healthy gills and fins. Luckily the last one he caught (a ginrin Chagoi), had clear signs of some kind of infection going on and was in bad shape. It was impossible to notice it before as it was a medium-to-smaller sized fish and my pond is 4 feet deep, but once we caught it, it was clear that the fish had some issues. We kept it in the net in the water, and over time it would basically float on its side and then float on its back to the water, while it's mouth was gasping as it was at the surface (while upside down). The fins had noticeable damage (I guess it is fin rot, but it looked more like parts were ripped off) and were pretty red in some places especially its bottom fins. It's gills inside showed clear signs of some white splotches (gill necrosis). It also had a significantly notched nose. I've posted a couple pictures of it below.

      We sedated 2 of the fish and took blood from both. Even the blood of the ginrin Chagoi was noticeably different from the healthy fish in that it was very watery and the serum was not separating out that well. He's going to spin down the blood, freeze the samples, and then overnight them for testing to UC Davis, so we'll see if there is a KHV infection or not (I really hope not) in about 5-10 days. At the very least, it was clear that we caught A fish that was suffering from whatever has been wreaking havoc on my pond for the past 2 weeks, so we should be getting some definitive answers back with it.

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    19. #39
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      And I found that same Ginrin Chagoi dead today as well. Unfortunately, I and my vet kind of expected this seeing how bad in shape it was yesterday in addition to being stressed out by being caught and sedated/having its blood drawn. This one has the full gamut of symptoms with the fin damage/redness, notched nose, gill necrosis, and the swimming upside down behavior (after we caught it).

      I believe the Proform-C should have taken care of any parasites for now. None were found when multiple skin scrapes were done yesterday. I ordered Chloramine-T from an ebay seller in the UK, so I'm not sure when that will arrive. I hope that I can get it as soon as possible to fight any potential bacterial infections.

      Of course, the KHV tests are going to take at least a week to get any results as well. Hopefully it is not the worst case scenario...
      Last edited by deanzel; 3 Weeks Ago at 11:17 PM.

    20. #40
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      Excellent vet visit with him being able to see one that was on its last legs. With the blood draw, hopefully a good result comes back.

      "Our goal is to assist with emergency and Koi health issues, as well as educate on best practices. Please help us gain a clear picture by giving the original poster time to answer our questions before offering opinions and suggested treatments."

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